Exploring God’s Design for Marriage and Headship with Pastor Scott LaPierre – BtR 345

Headship in Christian marriage is a concept that is often misunderstood and misused, leading to harmful power imbalances and the perpetuation of patriarchal attitudes. But what if we told you that, in God’s design for marriage, headship is not about entitlement or domination, but rather a call to sacrificial love and servant leadership?

In this episode, we dive into the true meaning of headship in Christian marriage, exploring the roles and responsibilities that come with it and challenging the harmful misconceptions that have plagued this important topic for too long.

Headship in God’s Design for Marriage

In Christian marriage, the concept of headship is paramount. It is a role that involves leadership, strength, and guidance. As the spiritual leader of the family, the husband is expected to provide examples of how to live a life that honors God’s will. This means being a solid example of faith, passion, and integrity that actively leads his family in their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Jesus set an example of servant leadership when he washed the feet of His disciples, John 13:4-17. He placed Himself in a position of service to those who followed His leadership.

Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) says to, “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” I often encourage husbands to go ahead and skip to verse 25, because that is where the letter specifically addresses us.

The concept of headship in Christian marriage is rooted in scripture and implies a divinely-ordained order of authority within the family unit. The Bible makes it clear that the husband is to be the head of his wife, much like Christ is the head of the Church. This does not mean that husbands are meant to dominate their wives or make decisions without consulting them; rather, headship calls for a strong leader who takes responsibility for leading his wife and family according to God’s will. It also includes providing spiritual guidance and protection, while nurturing and caring for one’s spouse with love and compassion.

In this episode, you will learn the following:

1. The odds of divorce for couples who experienced divorce as children.

2. How it is possible to have equality in a marriage relationship and headship? 

3. That time when Jerry was called to take on the headship of his marriage.

3. If committing to a biblical marriage, what responsibilities do Christian husbands have?

Scott LaPierre – Teaching Pastor, Author, and Speaker

Scott LaPierre is the teaching pastor of Woodland Christian Church in Woodland, WA, an author, and conference speaker. He holds an MA in Biblical Studies from Liberty University. Scott and his wife, Katie, have nine children and they are passionate homeschooling advocates. Scott is a former schoolteacher and Army officer. Learn more about Pastor Scott at his website: www.scottlapierre.org.

Your Marriage God’s Way: A Biblical Guide to a Christ-Centered Relationship

Your most important earthly connection is with your spouse, and when you honor the person you married, you’re also honoring God. He created marriage to be one of life’s greatest gifts, and the instruction manual you need for a joyful, lasting union is found in His Word.

In Your Marriage God’s Way, author and pastor, Scott LaPierre, takes a close look at the principles for building a biblical marriage—one in which your relationship with Christ brings guidance and blessing into your relationship with your spouse. You’ll gain the tools to…

• * understand the unique roles and responsibilities of husbands and wives
• * recognize and resolve the conflicts you face with a heart of hope and compassion
• * follow God’s worthy command to love and cherish your spouse unconditionally

Whether you’re at the beginning of your journey or you’ve been on the road together for years, Your Marriage God’s Way will provide the helpful and encouraging insights you need to experience marriage as God intends it.

Chapter Summaries:

00:04:42 Transition From Military Service To Ministry: A Combat Engineer’s Story

00:07:57 Transitioning From Elementary School Teacher To Youth Pastor

00:11:00 Higher Risk Of Divorce For Couples With Divorced Parents

00:18:16 Headship And Submission In Marriage

00:21:46 Wise Help for Husbands: The Role Of A Wife’s Counsel

00:28:29 Biblical Marriage And Responsibility: Headship not Dominance

00:32:01 Passivity In Men: The Sin Of Not Leading In Marriage

00:33:24 Why Women Want Their Husbands To Lead

Resources

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Follow Scott on Social Media: Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter

Other episodes and articles you’ll enjoy:

SWOT Analysis for a Healthy Marriage – BtR 293

Overcoming Destructive Anger in Your Marriage – Natalie and Mike Hixson BtR 210

Healing for the Grown-Up Child of Divorce – BtR 295

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Twitter: https://twitter.com/beyondtherut

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerrydugan/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Jerry Dugan: All right. Hey Scott. How are things over there in Washington? 

[00:00:03] Scott LaPierre: Good. Doing 

well. How’s it going in Texas, 

[00:00:04] Jerry Dugan: Jerry? Oh man. Doing good. It got colder again, so I guess, well, the people listening, it’s not gonna be winter when you hear this for the first time, but if you catch it later in the year and it is winter again, it’s cold, so.

Mm-hmm. . Awesome. I’m glad you jumped on here with us. We’re gonna be chatting about agave love about headship. But before we dive in there I think I saw in when I was reading your book, your Marriage God’s Way. I think you mentioned you were a tank officer in the. 

[00:00:29] Scott LaPierre: Yes. After high school, , I joined Army R O T C during college.

So you’re basically a college student while in ROTC pay for college and the day you graduate, you’re commissioned as well. So I was a second lieutenant in the army right after, right after college. And I was branched armor or tanks. Yeah. 

[00:00:46] Jerry Dugan: Oh man. You, so you had mottos like death before dismount and uh,

[00:00:50] Scott LaPierre: Yeah. Are you prior service. 

[00:00:52] Jerry Dugan: I, I was a medic. Yeah. So, 

[00:00:53] Scott LaPierre: oh, I guess I missed that. Okay. 

[00:00:55] Jerry Dugan: Oh, I didn’t tell you yet. No, I was surprise. I was, I was in the army . Yeah. So I was a medic right outta college, so I didn’t go R O T C though. And, and all my friends pick on me about it, especially if they were in the army, like mm-hmm.

idiot. You could have gone in as an officer. Yeah. Yeah. Too late now. I went in as a medic but it worked out cuz I met my wife, she was also a medic, and if I was an officer, we would not have been allowed to date. Mm-hmm. Or we could have, I just wouldn’t be an officer anymore. If I was still in the Army.

So yeah, it worked out God’s plan. It worked good. . Right. , when were you in 

[00:01:24] Scott LaPierre: anyway? 2000, I was commissioned May 5th, 2000. Okay. And then, and then went into teaching elementary school and coaching after that, and that’s when I became a Christian and really wanted to be in ministry and became a pastor soon after that.

And I’ve been, been in ministry. Okay. 

[00:01:39] Jerry Dugan: Were you active duty or national guard or 

[00:01:40] Scott LaPierre: Yeah, I was active. Active duty. Yep. Okay. So when did you get out? I got out a few years later. I had a, an honorable discharge cuz I had a shoulder injury actually that had occurred during, during college. So I never saw any combat’s time or anything like that.

Nothing, nothing to, I’m thankful for the privilege I had to, to serve my country even, even in a smaller way. But yeah, that was, And went to some military schools, training schools, and learned different skills. You know, one thing that I passed along to your audience is, you know, God uses the things in our lives that when we look back in hindsight, we don’t, can’t tell at the time, but you know, in hindsight we can tell God wanted to use that and so, You know, it was frustrating somewhat to learn so much about leadership and, and to be trained for combat and never really be able to put a lot of those skills into practice.

But then I used those leadership skills as a school teacher and then as a senior pastor, a teaching pastor. Yeah. So God still had a plan. God had his fingerprints on everything. It just, I couldn’t see it at the time. Yeah. 

I, 

[00:02:37] Jerry Dugan: so you had a classroom or did you do like pe 

[00:02:40] Scott LaPierre: No, I taught fifth grade. I had a classroom. I had, I had the same students all day. I really loved it and I was teaching. I mean, I was coaching, excuse me. And then during my second year teaching, I became a Christian. I had some, some teachers around me that went to the same church, share the gospel with me.

Actually my brother died of a drug overdose and I went to, they invited me to go to their church. I went just to talk to the pastor cuz he’d lost his brother when he was about my age. And they said, Hey, you ought just come to church, talk to our pastor. And I said, you know, I’ll do that. And I thought I would encourage my parents for them to hear that I was getting some help.

And I went there. He, you know, I didn’t even go with the Bible and they handed me a Bible and they said, open it to, you know, whatever chapter it was in Peter, I believe. And he read a verse and explained it, read a verse, explained it. And that was just a, a life-changing moment for me. It’s the first time I thought God was speaking to me through his word.

I didn’t get to talk to the pastor that week, and I was already looking forward to coming back. Following Sunday. Heard the gospel soon after that and it resonated with me. God opened my heart to to Christ and then I is. It is interesting cuz I had this real passion and love for teaching elementary school and I just found it diminishing.

I wanted to tell people to open their Bibles versus tell students to open their math books. And then God opened the door for me to go into ministry part-time as a youth pastor, which worked well as an elementary school teacher. Cause I had the same hours as my students. The church grew, they hired me full-time as kind of an associate pastor, and I did that in California.

That’s where my wife, wife, and I grew up until coming here to Washington in 2010. So been here over 12 years now. Wow. 

[00:04:05] Jerry Dugan: Now, were you already married when you became a Christian, or, 

[00:04:09] Scott LaPierre: yeah, actually, my wife and I grew up together and neither of us were Christians and we reconnected after high school. And it was like, you’re a Christian.

Oh, you’re a Christian. And that was kind of the, the real interest there. We were in a small town. Everyone knew each other, and so when we got together, It was like, you know, everyone’s talking about it and, and so when we got married back in our hometown, a lot of the town came out. But yeah, we were Christians when we got married, but we had both become Christians after high school and had not known each other as Christians during high school.

Oh, I 

[00:04:35] Jerry Dugan: see. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. My wife and I She wanted to get plugged back into a church and I was like an anos. I did that with air quotes for those who can’t see me. And you know, like there’s something out there, but you know, we can’t say what it is. I read more than one. Mm-hmm. , all the, all that stuff.

Oh, . So my, my. I guess accepting Christ as my savior was more of a almost a two year process, maybe a year. I was, I was a bit boneheaded. But it started though with my wife making a deal with God, and that was if God brought me back from combat in one piece, she’d make sure I went to church and the rest was up to him.

Hmm. And then now I know better. I apparently made a deal with God as well, and that was, if you were real, you’ll replace me with somebody better than me. And that guy will also raise my kids as if they’re my, his own. And cuz I wasn’t expecting to come back from Iraq, I was a medic. Get the most posthumously awarded medals out of all the branches in the Army.

Mm-hmm. So. . Yeah. Looking back, I’m like, okay, so we both made a deal with God. No regrets. So , so yeah, we’ve been married 21 years. How long have you guys been married? We’ve been married 16 years. 16. And yeah, it’s just. Been a wild, wild ride. I mean, she’s just a few doors over. So she can’t even say it’s been a wild ride, but she knows she was there with me.

So . Mm-hmm. . But one of the things that, that for my wife and I, this is why I wanted to have you on the show, is that before my wife and I got married, we talked about marriage, we talked about growing up, and one of the things we knew was that she had experienced, I think three or four divorces while she was growing.

Really as a kid, and, and for me as a kid, I experienced three. So my, my parents had split my dad had remarried, my mom had remarried and she had also split again. And then my dad kind of got separated and he still is to this day. He’s not divorced, but separated. And, and so, Somewhere out there, there’s a, like the statistic, like if you look at, you know, couples who did not experience divorce while they were growing up, like they’re kind of the baseline as far as the divorce rate goes.

And it’s somewhere around like 25 to 30%. I but if you look at like couples where at least one of them experienced divorce as a child, their outcome for divorce is like 50% higher than the baseline. And then you look at couples, , both husband and wife experienced divorce growing up. The, outcome of divorce is 189% higher than the baseline of people who never experienced it.

Now, fortunately for us, we didn’t learn that statistic early on. We learned it later when we got involved in marriage ministry. And then when we saw that, we’re like, wow, it’s a good thing we promised each other. Like if we got married, like that’s it. We are committed to make it work. Divorce is like the last thing on the list.

Mm-hmm. , like, we’re stronger now than we were 21 years ago, I’ll tell you that. You know, I just, and I think a lot of that you know, for us we learned about things like headship and submission, and I never really shared this with my audience before, but like, I didn’t care about headship. I was kind of a new Christian.

And I’m just sharing your, my story and let you take off from there. And, and so it was like I was working from home. I was a real estate agent and my, my wife was going to like a women’s Bible group, I think it was mops, mothers of Preschoolers. Mm-hmm. . And I’m making client calls, checking with people, see if I can get referrals and business going.

And I hear the front door open, I hear it slam shut. My wife never slams the door. But she slammed it that day. I’m like, oh, maybe it’s windy outside. And so I’m still like, at my calls and I hear her like shuffling in the kitchen. I figure she’s putting her stuff down. I, and she’s like putting like her bible down and it’s like a heavy thud.

And like I hear her sigh and she’s clearly upset about something. And I’m kind of scared. I’m like, I don’t know. Do I wanna go out there? Like maybe I shut the door and she won’t notice. , we’ve only been married I think, three or four years at the time. And. So I, I could clearly tell that she’s upset, and I just ask her like, are you okay?

And she’s like, no, I’m not. And I’m like, all right, well, do you wanna tell me about it? And she said, I’m supposed to submit to you. And I’m like I, I’ve never demanded that of you. What , wait. Does this mean you make me a sandwich? Like, what does this mean? ? And she’s like, of course you’ll joke about it.

I’m like, no, seriously, what does this mean? Like, I’ve never asked you to be like a housewife or, you know, be submissive to anything I want and do and say like, I don’t know what that means. Like, like deep down, I already knew there’s a responsibility that comes. With her being submissive to me. I don’t know what any of that means.

I don’t know what it, you know, like, she’s like, yeah, you’re supposed to be the head of the family. And like she’s like talking about her, her bible study and she didn’t like it. I’m like, okay what can I do to be supportive of you and what do I need to learn like that, that personal decision of like, I need to learn what it means to be in this Christian marriage now because she’s clearly committing to that.

She’s upset about it and I don’t know what to do. and, and so I had to learn about headship and that responsibility and what headship is not. And, and with that also, like what submission is and what it is not. And I’m glad I learned it. . Mm-hmm. . So I guess from just the headship perspective, like what is headship and, and what is it not?

[00:09:12] Scott LaPierre: Okay. Very good. Yeah. Well, first, let’s just begin by, yeah, establishing what it is. It is biblical. That’s the first thing we can say. I’ll just read a few verses here. I’m not even commenting on them. Sometimes people get upset, , and I wanna say, Hey, look, I, that wasn’t my interpretation, I just read the verse to you.

That’s what God says, you know, you can read a thousand times and it still says the same thing. So the, let’s say first Corinthians 11, it says I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ. The head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. And so it says right there.

That the head of wife is her husband. In fact, that verse is interesting cuz it shows that even within the triune nature of God, there’s headship. That’s one thing to keep in mind. It says that Christ, the son of God, has his father as his head. And so in a, in a discussion of submission, I mean, who’s the most submissive person that’s ever lived?

It’s Jesus, right? He said, I’ve come not to do my will, but to do your will. , every decision he made, all, you know, every action was in submission to his father to carry out his father’s will for his life. And so sometimes when people criticize headship or submission, one of the things they’ll say is that it’s means husbands and wives are not equal.

You know, a, a woman will say, well, I don’t submit to my husband because men and women are equal. Well, that same logic, if they’d have to apply to the triune nature of God and say that the God the Son is inferior to God, the Father, which we know is not true. . And so headship and submission is not an issue of equality or superiority or inferiority.

It’s simply an issue of roles and responsibilities, which occurs within the tri and nature of God and occurs within the marriage and plenty, plenty of other places in life, which I’ll explain that in just a second. But the other verse, Ephesians five tells us. Verse 23. The husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ as the head of the church.

And then he goes on to describe the relationship between a husband, a wife, as the relationship between Christ and the church. And so one of the things that’s really kind of interesting to me, or maybe sad or ironic, is that people recognize whether they like to admit it or not, the need for headship and submission pretty much in every other area of.

And what I mean by that is if you look at any organization or business or team or school, let’s say when I was a school teacher, there’s a principal, an assistant principal. You don’t have two head principals. You know, a co there is a head coach, and then there’s assistant coaches. There’s not two head coaches.

There’s a pilot and co-pilot. You know, nobody wants to get on a plane where there’s two head pilots that are arguing about direction that the, that the plane should go. You know, we have president, vice president and so we see this need for he and submission in every other area of life, but for some reason we want to deny that same need within the marriage relationship, which is really unfortunate, and I would say to the detriment of many marriages, because God is wise, he knows what’s best.

He knows what allows us to have healthy, joyful, successful marriages, families, jobs, relationships. And it’s by applying the wisdom that. That’s contained in his word. And as a, you know, from those verses and plenty of others, it’s abundantly clear the God’s plan is for there to be headship within, within the marriage.

And so I get, you know going back to your original question, what exactly d is it and what isn’t it? You know, we understand that many. People, men have abused submission or headship. They have abused their, they’ve abused their wives, whether obviously physically, but sometimes just mentally, emotionally, spiritually, which are other forms of abuse.

And so we, so there are. There are boundaries on headship and submission. There are things a wife doesn’t do. I have a whole post on my blog and if any of your listeners reach out to me, I can send it to them. Where before I talk about submission, and I think it’s in my book, and you probably saw this too, I first talk about what submission is not, what is not involved in submission First, establishing that and that a wife isn’t gonna submit to send, she’s not gonna submit to abuse.

And so let’s talk about how a headship comes into, into play or why there’s this need. , imagine a husband and wife are talking about a decision, and this occurs obviously frequently in marriage. You’re, you know, we have nine, nine children and we’re constantly talking about what to do as a family, what not to do, whether to go here or there, whether we should buy this or not.

And so a husband and wife have talked at length and they can’t agree. . Well, at that point, what is the solution for the relationship to go forward? You know, do, is it paper, rock, scissors? Did they flip a coin? God says at that moment, the husband makes the decision and then the wife puts herself behind her husband.

And one of the important things for wives to understand is they’re not supporting the decision. They’re. because if they su supported the decision, they wouldn’t have to submit. You know, that’s one of the things I’ve heard wise say to me. A wife will say, well, you know, I would submit to my husband if I agreed with him.

And when a wife tells me that, she’s also telling me that she doesn’t understand submission because submission is entirely in place for when a wife disagrees with her husband. If she agreed with her husband, she wouldn’t have to submit. It’s like with my children, you know, if I tell my kids to go out and play, they don’t have to submit to me.

They’re glad to. If I tell my children to do their homework and they don’t wanna do it, that’s when submission comes into play. And so a wife will, so a wife has to acknow, has to allow a decision to be made that she probably doesn’t think is best. If she thought that it was best, they would’ve agreed, I mean, submissions for when they disagree.

And so it’s, it’s important for wise to keep in mind that they’re not held responsible for the right decision being made. If, if a wife thought that, Held her responsible for the right decision being made, then she would actually never stop arguing or let’s say nagging. You know, she would never stop pushing it would, she would feel on her shoulders the responsibility to see that right decision being made.

And so a wife is a. You know, Genesis two 18, you just go ahead and interrupt me if I’m, if I’m talking too much . But God, he’s creating. And at the end of each day it says, he says it, it it. God saw that it was good. God saw that it was good. And the first time he sees something that’s not good, it’s man being alone.

And so he says, I’ll make him a helper or help meet to that’s comparable. And even right there we see the equality between a husband and wife. He says they’re equal, even though the wife is gonna be her husband’s. Sometimes women buck against that. Even they don’t like being called a helper. But interestingly Jerry, that is more of a comment on a husband’s inadequacy or insufficiency and is more of a compliment to a wife because God looked and said this, this guy needs help.

You know, Scott and Jerry are not gonna make it. I need to give them wives. To help them. And so it says something about the powerful blessing or influence. A wife can be on a situation or a husband’s life, and it’s a comment on a husband’s inadequacy or insufficiency without a way. So it says, if it says anything critically, it says it critically about, about the husband.

And so, so how does a wife help then, if she’s gonna be your husband’s helper? Well, she provides counsel thoughts. It’s not, it’s not, You know, you’re gonna, like you said earlier, kind of jokingly serve me and make me a sandwich or do all these things. Al although there are ways that a wife does help a husband.

Physically, Titus two talks about wise being homemakers and there’s a lot Katie does with our home and with our children. That’s a help to me. But it, beyond that, it’s, it’s a wife providing counsel and thoughts to her husband advising him. You know, God has, I believe, spoken to me through Katie many times there.

We’ll, we’ll leave a situ. And Katie will say, you know, it seemed like you didn’t listen well enough to that person, or you interrupted them, or you kind of made a joke and it was rude. Actually, our last elder meeting, I made a joke and then we left and, and Katie’s like, that probably wasn’t the best, best joke for you to make.

And these are ways that wives helped their oblivious husband see things. And so, but the point is, after, after wife has offered, the ideal situation is a wife offers her husband, her counsel or advice, and they come to. And that’s, that’s what you always hope can happen. You spend some time praying, considering what God’s word says.

Maybe you get co counsel from the elders and the husband and wife both feel like we should do a. Other times the husband feels like we should do A and the wife feels like we should do B. And that’s exactly when submission comes into place. 

[00:17:00] Jerry Dugan: And then, you know, there’s also that I, it’s worked for me anyway, like when we do disagree, my wife and I you know, like, I guess for me lazy headship is if she just defers to me, like, oh, whatever you want to do.

And I could tell clearly, She feels strongly about this. You know, as, as the head it’s like, all right, well, don’t just defer and like, you know, throw it all on me. Like, let’s explore this a little bit more. Can, can tell me more about your position and I’ll tell you more about mine and, and working it through.

And it, we wind up with a solution. It might still be the thing I wanted to do or thought we needed to do but taking that time for her to understand where we’re coming from and also seeing. Took into consideration her concerns. Not really to get consensus, but you know, when she falls in with like, yeah, go ahead and I feel better about that decision.

Let’s go do that. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I think that’s, that’s a big thing. I I, I love that you, you touched on, and it’s, I mean, it’s biblical, the equality piece, you know, that, you know, that big misconception is, you know, do, as I say, I’m the king of the house. The king of the castle mind, mine, mine, and then that, that is, Skewing of the equality.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. , because you, you’re married to God’s daughter, basically. . Yeah. It’s like that’s, that’s a father-in-law. I don’t wanna mess up. Yeah. Well that, that’s what 

[00:18:10] Scott LaPierre: the big would the terms complementarian or egalitarian be familiar to your audience or should I briefly explain 

[00:18:15] Jerry Dugan: those? Well, I know cuz I read your book, but yeah.

Explain it to the audience. . 

[00:18:18] Scott LaPierre: Okay. So A complimentarian, which is what I am, and what I believe the Bible makes abundantly clear is that men and women are equal, but they don’t have identical roles and responsibilities. And I don’t know how any honest reading of scripture can come away and think that God has made women and men with identical roles and responsibilities.

It’s evident. That we have different roles and responsibilities in the home and in the church. You know, I mentioned Ephesians five earlier and, and God does not describe husbands and why is the same. I mentioned Titus two where he talk, he says, older women should teach younger women to do these things.

Love their husbands, their children, their homes, and, and so it’s evident there’s different commands for both. And so a complimentarian view, it’s C o m p l e, not c O M P L I. It’s not praising someone, but fitting together, complimenting each other. The alternative to that, which I think is unbiblical and has opened the door for many problems within families and within churches, is called egalitarianism.

and Egalitarians say that men and women are identical regarding their roles and responsibilities. And this is what you’ll see in families that deny, or marriages that deny headship. And in churches, maybe where men and women don’t have different roles, or women might be senior pastors or something like that.

Well, the common criticism, the reason I explain that the common criticism of egalitarians is that they’ll say, well, men and women are, are equal. And so because of that, a wife doesn’t have to submit to her husband, but you made the point Well, That because a wife submits it does not mean that she’s not equal.

And I’ll, I’ll just use an example. When I, when you were in the military, when you submitted to an officer above you or your soldier submitted to you, it did not mean that you were superior to them and they were inferior to you. When teachers, when students submit to their teachers, citizens submit to their governments you know, I go into a store and this guy owns the store. He has authority in there and he tells me, you know, I whatever he wants, or put your, you know, I people come in here and they have to wear their shoes. I tell my stu, my children that I say, if we go into a restaurant, we follow their rules. That doesn’t mean we’re not equal to them.

That just means they have authority in that situation. And so, yeah, it’s not an issue of superiority and in and inferior. 

[00:20:13] Jerry Dugan: How did somebody put it to me that if you both were identical, one of you is redundant? 

[00:20:18] Scott LaPierre: It would’ve been fine for man to be alone essentially.

God said it’s not good for man to be alone because a wife was gonna add, A woman was gonna add something that the husband inhabit. If the man and woman were identical, you’re completely right. Yeah. And 

[00:20:28] Jerry Dugan: That’s different than you have things in common. It’s like I think it’s in your book that your wife is better at managing the finances and, and I mean, when you’re juggling nine kids, I mean, you gotta be spot on with the finances.

there is no room for error, no margin. And, and so my wife and I are, are, are like that, you know, it’s like I’m always giving people the benefit of the. And she’s gifted with discernment, you know, within 30 per seconds of us meeting somebody. Mm-hmm. , she knows that somebody’s gonna be bad news for our peace of mind.

And she’ll say on the flip side, you know, I’ll know to give somebody the benefit of the doubt when she’s already written them off. And, and there have been times where that’s been okay as well. Like it worked out, or, or, or, we have a good relationship with that other person, but we know where the boundaries are.

So I I I love that. I mean, it’s just like, and it’s still like, it, like if you just say it at face value, it does sound like, wait, what? How are you gonna say the man’s in charge of the woman? It’s like, The responsibility in a biblical marriage is that mm-hmm. . And if you, if you put it all together with like agape love, like even the, the creation of man and woman in, in the biblical sense, you know, you talk about it like, I mean, you’re repeating what’s in Genesis, like God didn’t create a woman out of the dirt that was beneath man’s feet, which I guess in the Arabic world is a big deal.

Like, you know, if you’re beneath somebody’s foot, you’re beneath them, truly beneath them. 

[00:21:49] Scott LaPierre: Actually, Eve or woman has the distinction of being the only thing not created out of dirt If you read exactly. And Genesis, it frequently says, out of the dirt of the ground, out of the dust of the ground, everything is created out of the dust to the ground.

And then you have Eve being created out of Adam’s side or fashion from 

[00:22:02] Jerry Dugan: him. Yeah. And very specifically the side, not the crown. Not beneath the feet. Not at the feet, but the side, you know? Oh, yeah. Showing that that equality there, that the two are side by side. But you know, and you mentioned in your book like the responsibility to get Eve trained up in, in knowing God and, and the laws of the Garden of Eden were up to Adam

Mm-hmm. , you know, he was the one held responsible. So it’s like, yeah. No matter how much money to blame her for, you know, Eden, the forbidden fruit. God was like, I gave you one job, you know, well two name the animals and the creatures and don’t eat from. and Yate from the tree . Mm-hmm. . It wasn’t like he was like off like playing golf when she got tempted either.

Like it, PE scholars say that chances are he was like right there by her 

[00:22:44] Scott LaPierre: side. Yeah. I think Adam’s passivity there is a big element. Even if you don’t think Adam happened to be right there, you still have God criticizing Adam for his passivity. So we understand that the sin itself was eating the. , but God pointed out how the sin occurred.

He said, you heated or obeyed the voice of your wife. So it was a reversal of the roles that we’ve been discussing. Instead of Adam being the leader or the head he submitted to Eve. Eve was the head who took this fruit and then told, told Adam gave it to Adam. And so, yeah, and we know that. Eve, I dunno if you wanna say, told Adam to eat it, but God did say to him, you have heated or you have obeyed the voice of your wife.

And so his passivity was, and that’s one of the bigger problems. Jerry, earlier we’re talking about abuse. Some men abuse their wives physically. That’s one of the common sins men commit. But the other sin on the other side of the spectrum is passivity. One of the ways. Men mistreat their wises. They’re not the leaders that God wants them has commanded them to be.

And, and it’s interesting, Jerry, I’ve been doing since I published my marriage book, you’re actually looking at a, a republished copy. I self-published it back in 2016 and then Harvest House wanted to publish it. So since that time I started doing these marriage conferences, doing an amount of marriage counseling, and then just getting emails almost weekly from couples with marriage questions.

And the biggest criticism that I have from women, You know, submission is this sensitive issue, or headship is, and you almost talk about it, like wondering if people are getting offended. But the, so you’d almost anticipate women lined up at the, a door of my office to come in and complain about this idea that they would have to submit to their husband.

But I don’t hear that. The biggest complaint that I hear from women is that my husband won’t lead mm-hmm. . And so I don’t, I don’t have women come in saying, my husband. So abusive, or he’s so cruel or harsh, although I’m sure that there are some women who feel their husbands are harsh or cruel. The biggest criticism I hear from women is, why won’t my husband be a spiritual leader?

Why I want my husband to make decisions for a home. I want him to cast vision. I want to be able to follow his lead. Not to say it’s always gonna be super easy, you know, but women, God, his. In, in this discussion of Complementarianism, it’s really a discussion of how God has created men and women differently, not identically.

And he has bound up in man a conviction to serve, or, I mean, to be a leader. Well, to serve as well. Christ led and, and he served and he has bound up in women’s hearts, a desire to have a husband that they can look up to and follow, and they crave that, you know? And so when a husband will lead, lead in a gentle, loving, kind Christ-like way, he’s gonna find a wife who’s generally pretty thrilled.

About that. Not a wife who is, who is upset about it. Katie’s had this interesting way when she addresses women. My, my wife’s a neat woman. She knows God’s word well. She gets invited to to speak at homeschool conferences or speak to women or sometimes takes part in q and as at my marriage conferences at the end.

And she frequently says that there’s things her flesh would crave. That, but her or her spirit craze, but her flesh hates it. So let’s say at times when she wants something, but she feels like she needs to submit to me, she says, my flesh wants to dominate, or, you know, control, but I need to crucify my flesh and my spirit ends up.

So my flesh ends up hating it, but my spirit ends up loving, seeing God’s word played out in our, in our hearts. So women know it’s bound up in their hearts, that desire to, to follow their husband, you know, and see scripture applied to the relat. . Yeah. 

[00:26:04] Jerry Dugan: And I mean, if we think about like, how did Christ lead, I mean, he didn’t like rule with an iron scepter or like an iron throne kind of thing, like mm-hmm.

the ultimate servant leader, like he washed the disciples, you know? Mm-hmm. , he he told stories of like the, the good neighbor, the good Samaritan, and And if we’re leading like that, if we’re striving to lead like Christ, who wouldn’t wanna submit to that like mm-hmm. . You know, I think one, one analogy I once used, this is way back, was like, I, I often look at headship as a presidency, you know I’ve gotta meet the needs of my constituents, which is my family, my wife first, and my children.

I gotta meet their needs as a servant leader, as the head of the home. I need to meet their needs. And so therefore, I need to be checked in. I need to know what makes them tick. I need to. , it doesn’t make them tick. I need to know what their concerns are. And if I’m aware of those things, then the decision making for me becomes easy.

It’s like, this is what my family needs. Mm-hmm. . And, you know, it, it goes back to that deal. I, I don’t know if we talked about it while we were on the recording or before, but I’d shared with you that apparently I became a Christian cuz both my wife and I made a deal with God. Mm-hmm. , she knew what she was doing.

I didn’t realize I made one. And that was like, make me a replacement. Replace me with somebody who would be better than me. Mm-hmm. and raise my kids as if they were his own. And and, and so seeing that and, and seeing what my kids need and my wife needs and, and that just I think that’s made headship so much easier.

Like the, I never think I’m lording anything over her because it’s about what does she need, how can I serve her needs? And in return she’s like, she never makes me a sandwich, but . Cause I’m the cook in the house. So it’s like we wouldn’t want that So I, I’d love that cuz I mean, what you mentioned though, that the biggest complaint you’ve heard is also the biggest complaint I heard when I worked in men’s ministry and served in men’s ministry was that you know, the women would write to us cuz we had a centralized email for the men’s ministry was like, Hey, I’m married to so-and-so, can y’all get ’em to hang out with you?

Because I want him to be more of a spiritual leader in our home. I want him to be the one who wants to volunteer in church and drag us to church. But we’re having to kind of. Drag him and then mm-hmm. and, and if you live in Texas, I know this is gonna sound like sacrilege, but trust me, it’s not. You know, a lot of men will choose watching the Cowboys game over going to church.

Mm-hmm. , do they wanna lead your family? Go to church, skip the Cowboys game. They ain’t going to the Super Bowl anyway. . Mm-hmm. . Scott, you might see me as a neighbor in the near future. They’re gonna boot me outta this state. They’re chatted. Texas. Yep. . I guess I could always be a Texans fan. There’s always a backup team.

Oh man. Are we, ah, we’re running outta time. Okay. So if folks. You’re listening, Anne. Yeah. If you love what we’re saying, awesome. If you’re really mad about what we’re saying, I’ll give you Scott’s email in the show notes. . But I mean, you’d know where to reach me guys. But also the, the thing I really wanted to do with broaching this topic is if you’ve never thought about headship, if you ever thought about submission in marriage and, and these roles in a biblical.

Marriage. So if you’ve chosen a biblical marriage, great. There are blessings that are in store for you in this route if you chose not to, it’s your marriage. So we’ve talked about headship, we’ve talked about submission. We’ve talked, shared about it from our perspective of how we see the scripture.

Now folks want more there’s the book, obviously Your Marriage God’s Way, and you can buy that off of Amazon. Or if you’ve got a podcast, reach out to Scott and say you wanna interview him. He’ll send you an electronic copy to read. If you don’t wanna go that far, , it might be cheaper not to start a podcast and just buy the book

But if people want more from you, maybe to speak at their church or to coach them, you know, what, what more could they do to get in touch with you and, and learn more about 

[00:29:30] Scott LaPierre: this? Sure. Yeah. So my website’s kind of the. The place to go. It serves as a, you know, hub with all my stuff from their social media, my conference messages and my books and and so forth.

And that’s scott lapierre.org. S c ot, t l a p i e r r e.org. And I think you said you’d put the link in the show notes and people, I have a contact page there. People can reach out to me with any questions. Learn about my books. If they enjoy, wanna learn more about this topic of marriage, I’d love for them to get a copy of my book, your Marriage, God’s Way and the accompanying workbook.

And on my website, I give away a free pamphlet on marriage, seven Biblical Insights for Marriage and Your readers. Your listeners can go to my website and download that, that for free. And I’d love to have them have that as a gift to hopeful, hopefully strengthen their marriage and point ’em toward Christ.

So thank, thanks a lot for having me on the show, Jerry. This is a blessing and I’d, I’d, you know, love to hear from any of your listeners and I appreciate what you’re doing out. Awesome. Thank you 

[00:30:21] Jerry Dugan: so much, Scott. Appreciate coming on here and helping us tackle this, this topic. God bless.