00:00:00 - Jerry Fu The heart that I have is for Asian American leaders that are in mid to level leadership positions like CC, new leaders in their twenty s and thirty s, right, that realize, hey, you know what? The rules I followed growing up aren't working anymore, right? The rules I followed in my household don't buy well to school. They don't buy well to work. It's a different culture. And even the ones that are successful, right, to say, hey, I've gotten all these things that my mom and dad said I needed to be successful, and why am I not more satisfied? You realize he just graduated to a different set of challenges. 00:00:35 - Jerry Dugan Do you feel like you're stuck in a rut in life or in a dead end job with no progression? I'm Jerry Dugan, and welcome to beyond the Rut, the podcast that offers you the motivation, inspiration and practical tools to help you build a life worth living. My show is here to help you break free from your limitations and find a path to success. Join me as I share encouraging stories and actionable advice on how to get out of your rut in life and create a vision for your future. Life is just too short to live stuck in a rut. Here we go. Hey, rudder nation. This is your host, Jerry Dugan, and in this episode, we're going to be joined by leadership coach and consultant as well as pharmacist Jerry Fu. Now, you heard that, right? There is another Jerry. You can have two Jerry's in the same place at the same time. And we do not create a time space rift. Now that's me nerding out. But the important thing is Jerry helps Asian leaders in corporate America find success in terms of communicating cross culturally and overcome some of the limitations that the Asian culture may find themselves in in a world where we may not be aware. Now, as somebody who is biracial and half Asian, my mom's from Thailand, this was a topic near and dear for me. So if you're a leader and conflict is something you struggle with, we're going to talk about some of the key things that you could do to be better at conflict. Understand why conflict is important to have. It's valuable to have and the rules to play by so that you can be successful and create win win scenarios. So that's what we're going to be talking about. Grab a notebook, a pen, sit back, relax, and here we go. All right. Hey, Jerry. Thanks for joining me out of Houston, Texas. How are you doing? 00:02:27 - Jerry Fu Doing great this morning, Jerry. How about you? 00:02:28 - Jerry Dugan Doing well, man. Doing well and official. First time ever I've had a guest on the show named Jerry. So everybody, if you hear me saying Jerry, I did not forget Jerry's name. His name is Jerry. Just like he spells it the same way, too. So I'm excited. It's like talking to me, but different. 00:02:48 - Jerry Fu Oh, man. 00:02:48 - Jerry Dugan Now, we met through a platform called Podmatch. I always love to give Alex a shout out. So the reason why we got Jerry on here is what really stood out for me is that your current career and business path is helping, specifically Asian Americans navigate and manage conflict. But that's not where you started. You started as a pharmacist, which is not easy to get into. I mean, you have to go through some sort of undergrad work. You got to get through that no man's land of a course called Organic Chemistry One and Two, which weeds out like, almost everybody except the few. And then you have to actually get into pharmacy school, and that's what, at least three years, and you come out with, I believe, a doctoral program or a doctorate degree, a Pharm. D. I think. And then you got to go convince a pharmacy to let you work for them. And then that's just the start of it all. Now you got the weight of people's lives in your hands, especially if you're in a hospital setting. I worked in healthcare for, gosh, close to a decade. So a lot of respect for pharmacists, because in almost every treatment plan, there's the pharmacist who's got to calculate everything, double check everything, make sure that the right dosages are going to the right floor for the right patients, and they're locked up and secured, and everything is tracked. And then you got to inventory everything. And then, heaven forbid, somebody tries to steal a narcotic. It's like, oh, boy, no easy field whatsoever. That's where you started. What was it that made you transition from being a pharmacist to now helping people navigate conflict? What was that moment like? 00:04:23 - Jerry Fu Yeah, the theme in my pharmacy career that helped kind of be the genesis of this new career, aspiration was that leadership saved my career in that I grew up conflict diverse. Right. I'm not allowed to bring up things when I'm upset. I'm afraid when people are upset with me, somehow that would make things difficult for me or be hit on my reputation or my desire to be liked. And so after enough struggle at failure, the problem was I just thought, I'm never going to be good at this, so I'm just going to avoid situations for the rest of my life that would make me look incompetent, right? Like being a leader, having difficult conversations. And it wasn't until my career hit a rough patch where I got fired from the job I went to Houston for, I ended up ending a job where more of my paychecks bounce for crooked doctors and how do you confront the boss? Is clearly ripping you off. And so it wasn't until I was invited to help teach some leadership material through a pharmacy leadership nonprofit some friends run, and that's when things started to change where I realized, hey, you know what? What if I gave myself permission to be a good, actually. And so the first moment was, hey, will I allow myself to become this? Even if other people disagree with me, even if other critics I felt like I agreed with them before, but what if I disagree with them, right? What if I could just be the person that I want to become regardless of who thought I could actually get there? Then the second moment was when I got written up by management after I'd taken out a management position because I was not willing to write up or fire bad technicians. And I realized that this theme of difficult conversations was the main obstacle keeping me from being an effective leader. Like, I can do taskless, I could be productive, I can prioritize on the clock. It's easy. But if someone's not pulling their weight and they got to put on the superhero costume, I got to put on the bad cop hat. And it just got really difficult. And so at some point, even though I was grateful for the fact that being a leader, having more leadership experience, opened more pharmacy doors in terms of jobs, I just got sick of the grind. And then I said, well, after my last company went under because of a business model that was ultimately unsustainable, I said, I'm tired of chasing scripts from doctors. I'm tired of fighting insurance contracts that dictate what I'm worth, what my freight is worth, what my schooling is worth. But I love this people development, which I consistently done since I started eleven years ago. What if I tried to make a career out of that? And then again, still very scared of rejection and failure and conversations around money, right? And so it was just this occasional hobby. Well, you pay me $50 to teach a workshop, right? Like, nothing serious until a pandemic hit. And by then I was in the middle of a formal coach training just to try to add some credibility and get some skin in the game. So between the pandemic and turning 40, I just said, okay, when am I actually going to set this dream in motion? So that was what led me to start the company. And then I realized I had to niche down because telling people I could help anyone really didn't make me stand out or didn't really get anyone inspired. But when I started to realize, hey, you know what? This niche that maybe I didn't choose it, maybe it shows me because I didn't want to deal with conversation. But I realized after I struggled enough with it that, you know what, I actually got some tips along the way that have actually helped me improve at this. And then I wanted to turn around and help other Asian leaders deal with similar things so that they would have a higher chance of success from the get go when they knew, hey, I've got a new leader add on. Either I have a boss I don't really quite get along with, or I have direct reports that pulling their weight. Okay. I have a five step process to be sure I don't fall back into rationalizing and procrastinating and avoidance. Yeah. 00:08:16 - Jerry Dugan And before we go into that process, looking specifically as an Asian American, I'm one as well, although I probably look more Latino, and I say Latino like I am Latino. 00:08:30 - Jerry Fu You've been in Texas long enough. 00:08:31 - Jerry Dugan I have, yeah. I married into this place. My wife's actually Mexican American out of Corpus Christi. So what is it, though, about conflict that would make you averse to conflict? I mean, you hinted at it earlier, but specific to the Asian American community. Why is conflict a big no no for us? 00:08:50 - Jerry Fu Yeah, the story around conflict, and at least in the Asian culture, so at least from what I have experienced, is that conflict means you disagree with authority, and if you disagree with authority, that means you're disrespecting it. Plus, it's just exhausting knowing that I have to put out this fire. And even if you come to resolution, just like I don't want to, even if you're good at it, you still get to a point where you just wish that you either prevent it more proactively than you did previously. But, yeah, the main thing is just that, yeah, we are just taught, hey, we're not allowed to speak up. We're not allowed to challenge, even if the ideas are good, and we have to let everyone else have their say before we get a chance to say anything. And, yeah, it's hard when, oh, we only got two minutes left in the meeting. Anyone else have any comments? And you're like, I guess I'll just put this off until next meeting, and then three or four weeks pass by. And, yeah, you realize now you're really upset because you have this really great idea or something that's really important to you that you know is important for the rest of leadership, but you haven't brought it up yet. 00:09:53 - Jerry Dugan And that's huge to point out because I know in typical, I guess, non Asian American culture, that's seen as being, like, a doormat or you don't have any opinions. I think Microsoft a couple decades ago had realized that they were losing out on great Asian candidates because what they thought was a sign of weakness or meekness was actually just deference and respect. It just simply had to do with Asians looking down away from direct eye contact to the person interviewing them, not realizing that that was a cultural thing. And then more recently and this isn't to get political, but Catherine Ty was on C Span recently, this clip's floating around the social medias, and I forget who the representative was, but the guy was just, like, patronizing her. So Asian American in a leadership role. I believe she's with the US treasury. That's a guess. But he's just patronizing her about what a hard job she has because she's so nice, and he believes that she's too nice for the job. And she's smiling and she's being polite and she's trying to respectfully redirect this guy and get back to the point. But he's still patronizing her about being too nice for the job and he feels bad for her and so on. And it gets to the point where she has to flip a switch and say, all right, if you want me to be blunt here, I'm being blunt. I know when to be blunt and direct, and I know when to be nice. And with that said, I don't need your pity, so can we get back to the questioning? You're like, yes, you mistook her niceness and politeness for weakness and bit you on C Span, and I love it, but that is, in essence, something that we had to learn consciously and intentionally to override and stretch out of. And when done well, you got some stuff to gain. But what's at risk for us? You kind of pointed it out. What's at risk for us? If we don't have a conflict at all? Things fester. You wind up getting fired. People start quitting. I worked in healthcare, and this was a lot of the feedback we would get from nurse leaders. Why don't you confront that nurse who's causing so much trouble? Well, she'll quit or he'll quit, and I'm already short on staff. And it's like, great. What's the cost of keeping that person without any sort of conflict with how they're behaving? And they'll tell you, Well, I already had two charge nurses quit in the last couple of months because nothing will happen to this person, and we just got this revolving door. And they just keep saying, this one person's the problem. It's like, great. So why are you keeping that problem around? You want to keep the nurse, but you're also keeping the baggage that's coming with the nurse. So what do you have to gain if you have conflict and it goes well? And so that's the message for everybody. I do kind of want to point this out specifically for us Asian Americans. What do we have to gain if we have that conflict and it goes well? 00:12:51 - Jerry Fu Yeah, it's part of the yeah, we look at the opportunity cost, right? And they say, the cost of my comfort is, yeah, I lose good people, right, because they say, well, I don't want to work around this problem if you're not going to confront it. And you also are burnt out, right? You just dread going into work as you're just sitting there thinking, oh, I don't want to have to hope that they're actually going to be productive or focused or contributing today. Right. Instead, you just need to have that conversation. And I tell people now, I realize now, I said, if I'm going to have a relationship go south, they should know exactly why I'm upset, right? If they're just going to not pull their weight anyway. They should know exactly why I'm upset with them. And then even if I'm mad at the fact that they've still decided not to change unless they got this off my chest, right. To give ourselves permission and I'm still a work in progress, guys, to give ourselves permission that we are allowed to be upset at something and to know that our opinion counts for something, even with or without a title to say, hey, no, I matter. I'm part of this organization. Especially if you're a leader, the organization is counting on you to make sure you maintain your team well. And, yeah, when you realize the cost of not engaging is worse than trying and failing or not getting the outcome that you want, then that's when the switches that flip, right? Especially in a leadership position. Yeah. 00:14:12 - Jerry Dugan And serving the greater good does involve having those one on one conversations, I'm convinced. And this was a big mindset shift for me as well when it came to conflict because I still struggle with it and I've gotten better at navigating it. In fact, this morning I was typing up an email to somebody who flaked on an interview a few days back, and I still hadn't heard from the person who set up the interview. And I'm like, all right, well, only because this person's representing somebody I know through other circles. I owe it to that person to let this assistant know they dropped the ball here. But, I mean, the first email was like, look, this is the second time this company has bailed on me. This is not a good look on your brand. This is it, I'm done. Unless your owner of your company reaches out to me personally, we're done. That was the initial email. 00:15:05 - Jerry Fu Wow. 00:15:06 - Jerry Dugan Well, that's not constructive, though. That's how I feel. It's not constructive. And so I reworded it, and I let them know, though, that your boss, your client, my guest, your boss was not present for our scheduled time. I hope everything is okay. However, I typically wait to hear from the guest before I reschedule. And it's only because I know of this person or know this person through overlapping circles that I'm extending this courtesy. Please let me know what happened and what your boss would like to do from here. And sincerely, boom. So I was still clear, like, here's the boundary you flaked on me. You didn't tell me why. I normally don't reschedule unless I've heard from the guest asking for a reschedule. So to respect both of our times, what would your client like? And I left it at that. But that took some practice. That took years to get there. And the point I wanted to make, though, was the thing that shifted my mindset, I don't know if this is the case for you, is realizing that people don't wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to be the worst possible employee I can be when I go into work today. They don't think that. They don't get up and say, I'm going to be the most annoying coworker I can be today. And they might get to the point where they're like, I'm going to make my boss's life a living hell today. There's a lot of disengagement that got them to that point, but the typical person isn't thinking they're going to be a horrible person. They're thinking the opposite. And so once I realized that and gave that person the benefit of the doubt that they're meaning, well, however, their behavior is having an impact. It allowed me to approach somebody in a way that was collaborative at saying, hey, you have this behavior. It's having this impact. Can we talk about it? And ever since I took that approach, doors open, some people get defensive, but you just maintain those grounds. Like, I'm trusting you. You didn't wake up this morning to be a bad person. So let's start there. So going into those five steps you were talking about, tell us about those, like that framework that you've developed that will help people take that same approach with that same mindset to resolve conflict. 00:17:24 - Jerry Fu Yeah. You touched on some really great points, and we'll highlight them as we go through the framework. So the first step that I have myself or other clients go through is to imagine what a successful conversation actually sounds like. Right. And so this gets you out of the mindset of, I don't think this is going to go well, but I got to do it anyway. If you put a low ceiling on the possibility, that's as far as you're going to get. So to allow yourself to say, well, success might not be likely, but it is possible, that is something that gets you in a more productive frame of mind. And then you have to realize that, you know what, success could mean a couple of different things, right. So let's overlay a real life situation, right, where it's like, okay, my kid's not cleaning his room or something like that. Right. You just like, familiar, because we know how familiar conflicts just are at the hardest. So it's like, hey, I can't get my kidney cleaner. I got to hit his room. It's like, okay, what is success? Is it I incentivize him financially or provide some kind of a seven? Say, hey, clean your room and I'll buy you tickets to your favorite concert? Or is it, hey, I need to find some compromise where even if he's not cleaning his room, maybe he finds some other choice he'd rather be more excited about doing. Maybe that's a possibility. And hey, you know what? Maybe it is just, hey, at least I get this off my chest. And even if he doesn't do anything, I'm okay with the fact that at least he knows I'm expecting of them to believe for his benefit. And so you have to ask yourself, well, which target am I heading toward? Because as soon as you get that and you allow yourself to be flexible because we would never say that effective conflict resolution is like twisting someone's arm to conform to your personal preferences, right? So we are not doing that, but we are asking, what outcomes would you be satisfied? The second step is what a lot of people love, which is finding 10 seconds of courage. And that's to, hey, can you find 10 seconds of courage to send that email, pick up that phone, go talk to the person, right? Because this allows you to set the boulder in motion, lock the gate behind you. Because what happens if we wait until we feel like we're brave enough to have this conversation? It might be weeks, right? The building burnt down. Finally, I'm ready. But the building is already burnt, so what's the point of finally feeling ready, right? You don't have to get out of the whole superhero costume. You just have to wear it for 10 seconds, right? Just A as b to B. Step three, now that you've kind of set things in motion, to either set a date for a conversation or to initiate the conversation, some people may want to script their moves, which is step three before initiating contact. So you can shop these around, but typically, once you've got a date on the calendar, now you night to prepare for it. So step three is to script your critical to say, hey, you know what? Okay, I need to get my kid to clean his room. What are some points I want to mention to echo Dale Carnegie to your, like, one approach you can take is, how can I frame the benefits for their not doing? I'm not asking to clean my room so I feel good about myself as a parent or I feel like things are under control. Here are the benefits for you to clean your room, right? And so you imagine not only the case that you want to make on paper, right? You don't want thoughts rattling around in your head. Get them out on paper. Okay. I want to make the point that, hey, when he needs to find something, he can find them more easily. Number two, he can just feel better and more relaxed in the room that's clean, right? And you start to think, and so now that you've got your points down, now you have to anticipate the pushback you're going to get, right? That's like, hey, I need to ask my boss for a raise. What are the likely reasons that my boss would not support this same thing? Even if I frame benefits for my kid to clean his room, how would he say, well, I just don't want to oh, I'm too tired. Oh, I'm too busy with other things that's like, okay, so now that you anticipate the ways that this conversation might go south. How will you counter the counter? Right? And so you could have 20 different scenarios. Obviously, we don't want you to plan for every single one of them, but take the two or three, most likely, and script that. Step four, you're not doing homework just to do homework. You need to rehearse these critical breaks, right. Iron out your phrasing role play with the friend, got this in front of a mirror. Or record this up on your smartphone and say, hey, how's my body language? Am I confident? Do I project confidence? Am I speaking in a clear and relaxed tone to get my point across? Can I articulate my thoughts clearly, effectively? And then step five, follow through. Because he didn't just do all his homework and say, okay, that's enough. And this is key because this is where you start to realize, hey, you know what? No plan survives. Detect my reality. I'm going to have to improv a little bit, and maybe if I don't have courage, maybe I flip to curiosity. Right? Maybe I just get curious about the situation if I'm not able to take it at all. Okay, well, let me just go in from the side to take a different angle, and maybe I'll look at it a little differently. Hey, can you help me understand what is it about cleaning your room that's so difficult? Well, then you start to learn something, then you can start to improve that. And then yeah, now that you've gone through one iteration, you realize, hey, you know what? Even if it didn't go like the way I wanted to, now I have feedback I can study right now. How do I adjust my approach so that turn the dials a little differently, maybe use a different tone of voice. Maybe I try a different approach. It's okay. And at the very least, now that you've tried and failed, yeah. All you can do is get better. Failure doesn't mean you're done. Failure means you're not done. And that's another mindset switch. 00:22:55 - Jerry Dugan Nice. 00:22:56 - Jerry Fu Those are the five steps that I. 00:22:57 - Jerry Dugan Usually walk, and I love it. In that third step, you include anticipating pushback. What do you see as the benefit of anticipating that pushback? 00:23:04 - Jerry Fu Yeah, so to zoom out for a second, there's a concept, what's called a pre mortem, right? And so you basically ask yourself if I have this goal in mind of writing a book or I want to get in shape, and you say, what could go wrong? And that's not unproductive pessimism. That's actually helpful pessimism. Because when you say, hey, what could go wrong? And you say, well, if I'm trying to write this book, and I allow distractions to get the best of me, if I'm playing Candy Crush on my phone, or I just get lost in Netflix Binging, okay, that's time I'm not spending on writing my book. So now that I have an idea of the things that will get in the way of getting my project done, how will I prevent them or change my routine so that these don't sabotage my efforts? 00:23:52 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, I love it. Like it puts you in the shoes of the other person as well. If I say these things, what kind of response might I elicit? And I don't know if it's happened for you, Jerry, but for me, sometimes it's pointed out my own shortcomings in the situation. Identify. Oh, this is where my thumbprint is in the situation as well. I've done a horrible job of making sure this person was scheduled and communicated with in a way that worked for them. Yeah, I got to be ready to own that and maybe even open with it. I know on my end, this is where I've fallen short. What I want to do is bridge the gap with where you're behaving. I love that anticipation of that pushback because it does force you to think of the other person's perspective, and I think that helps already start to bridge the gap before you even have the conversation. You're already starting to find some common ground inadvertently. And so that was something that stood out to me. And I love that you point out consider curiosity too, because you're looking at this from your perspective and maybe other people who've brought this issue to your attention, that person who's behaving in that way that you need to address may be totally clueless to the impact they're having. Or maybe they're going through something that you don't know. Like maybe it's a coworker going through a divorce, just found out husband cheated on her and with college best friend. I'm making this up, guys. It was very specific. Jerry, how did. 00:25:25 - Jerry Fu Names have been changed? I don't know the genetic name exactly. 00:25:27 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, it happens, though, where somebody's parent is terminally ill or somebody's child was in an accident. We don't know. But a lot of times we might see what's going on outside the workplace, start to manifest in the workplace, and then that shift in dynamic is just sort of feeding that. And that curiosity piece, I feel, is very huge because now you're inviting this person into a conversation. Let's shed some light. Let's get to some common ground. Let's get to a mutual purpose. We're going to reestablish mutual respect. Where do you go from here? Once you've opened up? Tell me more about the is the follow through more about well, let me start over. I wanted to ask, like, four things all at the same time. 00:26:10 - Jerry Fu Yeah, go for it. 00:26:11 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. Let me focus on one, though. The follow through, if you can clarify, is that having the have the conversation, then following up, or is the follow through more of just go and have the conversation, have that courage to go have the conversation? 00:26:22 - Jerry Fu Yeah, thanks for asking the clarification. Yes. This is just the actual conversation. If I had to modify my framework because. Yeah, this isn't set in stone, right? I need to continually renovate. Yeah, the 6th step would be evaluate and adjust. Right. And just to say, hey, you know what, whether it went well or went poorly, reflect on that. Take time to say, hey, you know what, what worked well? It's like, okay, y'all, put them on the defense, right. As soon as you get someone on their heels, they're probably going to dig in and you're like, okay, so don't lead off with how upset you are, right? Maybe you say, hey, I'm concerned, or hey, maybe you start off with reassurance to say, hey, I am having this conversation because I want us to have a good working relationship and because I want to have that working relationship. There are a couple of difficult things we need to work. Can you do this right? Another thing is asking permission and just bringing that up, right? Hey, it's now a good time to have this conversation because if the answer is no, it doesn't matter how much you game plan, you just have to wait. But at least you're giving them letting them have a saying this whole matter, not just trying to pin someone on a wall. Hey, we got to nail this right now. Right? It is. Hey, open hands, collaborative, like you said. I do need to start with confrontation together. I need to get your attention. And now that we agree on the problem, we got to shoot the same side of the table and attack this together. What do you see? 00:27:46 - Jerry Dugan And this is also true if you're inheriting a team. Like you're taking over a team that you don't know what the dynamic was like before, but you got a lot of ground to cover to build some trust and build it quickly. And I remember taking over a team where somebody just didn't seem to get certain reports done consistently and it was troubling to the people higher than me. I'm the guy who's the lucky guy who's got to go have that conversation with this employee. Because the person reported to me and I'd approached the person and brought up the issue and it was very private, very cordial, but I recognized the other person was very defensive, like, oh man, you're coming to hang me up to dry or you're going to fire me? And I'm like, no, we're talking about a report. This is just a good skill to have, period. And it's one I struggle with as well. But here's the specific thing we're struggling with. And then I brought it up and I could just tell the person was scared. I was just there to blast the person and I had to let this person know and reassure the person that I'm only bringing this up because I want to see you improve. I want to see you grow. I want to see this report to be the most dependable thing, if not one of the many dependable things we already do. It's just one specific component. And then the person finally disclosed that it was a skill set this person didn't have and was afraid to bring it up. And I'm like, oh, well, I could show you real quick. The person was like, really? I'm like, yeah, you're not mad? I'm like, no, we were trying to fix a problem. Now if you got the time right now, I could show you now or we could set up time to do it later. You're going to be so mad when you see how quick this is. And she said, yeah, show me. And I showed her and she's like, Are you serious? I'm like, yeah, that's all it is. She goes, I'm so embarrassed. Don't be. I didn't know how to do that until a few years ago. But that was it. There was never a problem again. And then there was something else that there were skills that people just let her get away with not knowing and over the years, just letting her know that we can always train for skill, just face it. And it finally got to the point where the person would confide in me and tell me, hey, I'm having trouble with this or I'm having trouble with that. I've tried this, this, and this to fix it. I don't know what to do. And so shifting from this person scared of me to this person now trusts me to come to me with any issues. She also learned that I don't just give the answer away. Like we start working through it because I need her to be able to do it when I'm not around. But it was just like those conflicts though. I mean, they're small, but they were causing ripples outside of her and I that she wasn't aware of, didn't have to know about. And then I would go have the conversations with all these other folks like, hey, we figured it out. We got it nipped in the bud. It's going to be corrected, you'll see. And sure enough, never an issue ever again. It just reinforced that you can come to us with issues and so on now. Oh man, we're running out of time. That ain't fair. That ain't fair. So if people want more, they want you to come speak to their organization. Let us know what is the ideal organization you work with? Is it organization, individuals? How do we find you? All the good stuff. 00:31:09 - Jerry Fu Yeah. The heart that I have is for Asian American leaders that are in mid to level leadership positions like CCM, new leaders in their twenty s and thirty s, right, that realize, hey, you know what, the rules I followed growing up aren't working anymore, right? The rules I followed in my household don't buy well to school, they don't apply well to work. It's a different culture, things like that. And even the ones that are successful, right, to say hey, I've gotten all these things that my mom and dad said I needed to be successful, and why am I not more satisfied? You realize he described it to a different set of challenges. So you could flip this in two ways. One is to work directly with the leaders individual. The second is to work with organizations that employ these leaders and say, hey, you know what? This Asian branch of our company, they keep saying things are fine every time we ask them, but then we find all these other problems. And then when we ask them about, we can't get them on the phone to discuss this because they assume that we're just mad at them for not disclosing it to begin with. Right? Yeah. Those are the two places that I would focus my time and energy on. The best way for people to get in touch with me is to visit the website adaptingleaders.com. There is a free guide that walks you through a case study with the five step framework that we talked about today, adaptingleaders. comGuide. Yeah. And then you can also read the free blog book A Complimentary 30 Minutes Call. That's where all the goodies happen. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. But yeah, all the best benefits are accessible to you through adaptingleaders.com. 00:32:45 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. And then before we go, Jerry, any final words of no. 00:32:50 - Jerry Fu I think just in line with everything we've talked about, you'd rather try and fail than not have tried, right. To say, hey, you know what? Just see what happens and celebrate that. Even if it doesn't go well. I think that's the bigger thing. Hey, celebrate your failure because now means you know how much you need to. 00:33:09 - Jerry Dugan That love that. Jerry, it was great to have you on here. Not just because your name is also Jerry, and I get to say my own name in this episode, but great content. I know this is going to help a lot of folks in their own careers and get them out of those leadership ruts they may be facing. 00:33:24 - Jerry Fu Thank you. 00:33:25 - Jerry Dugan Now, I hope you got a lot out of that conversation like I did. I know one of the takeaways for me was the importance of just having the internal courage to say, you know what? Speak up. Ask a question that needs to be asked so that everybody benefits from this. We're serving others when we push the envelope, in a sense, when we ask the question that everybody wants to ask but it's not being asked and to do it in a tactful, respectful way. So that was my takeaway. What was yours? Now you can go over to the show notes@beyondthirut.com Three 80 and leave a comment. I want to know, what was your takeaway from this episode where we talked about conflict and overcoming some of our own limiting beliefs when it comes to leadership? What are the fears that you've overcome or need to overcome I'd love to hear from you. Now, if you don't want to go all the way over to the show notes, but you're willing to send me an email, you could do that as well. Info@beyondtherut.com I read my emails multiple times throughout the day, and that's what I do. So I'm glad you joined me in this episode, and I look forward to joining you again on the next one. But until next time, go live life beyond the rut. 00:34:37 - Jerry Fu Take care. Bye.