Wherever you are, whether you think you're in a rut or not. Uh Just remember you're probably doing your best. And I realize that because I'm a bit condescending. I don't mean it that way, but it's a really good thing to pause and go. Hold on a minute. Am I doing my best? I probably am great. So let's just let go of any self criticism and just take a look from that, from that place. Do you feel like you're stuck in a rut in life or in a dead end job with no progression? 

I'm Jerry Dugan and welcome to Beyond The Rut, the podcast that offers you the motivation, inspiration and practical tool to help you build a life worth living. My show is here to help you break free from your limitations and find a path to success. Join me as I share encouraging stories and actionable advice on how to get out of your rut in life and create a vision for your future life is just too short to live stuck in a rut. Here we go. Hey, Rutter Nation. This is Jerry and on this episode of Beyond The Rut, our special guest is Catherine Loewen. She's calling in from the UK and we're gonna talk about how to have self-awareness over you or you, did you hear that uh self-awareness over yourself? And uh to, to gain self mastery because real, your success, your enjoyment in life is an inside job and it starts with you. It also ends with you. So if you want to have the most out of life, you gotta work on you. 

There's no way around that and that's what we're gonna talk about today with Catherine. So sit back, relax, grab a pen and a notebook. Here we go. All right, Catherine. Thanks for joining me out of Wales. How are you doing today? 

I am doing really well. I'm feeling relaxed and I'm very excited to be here. Nice. Relax is a good state of being. I think uh you're not worried, you're not stressed and it allows your mind to just creatively explore, you know, both the physical tangible world and the world that doesn't exist yet or it's just kind of, I don't know, I'm just, I'm just, I don't know why I just dove into that. But the moment you said relaxed, I was like, yes, like my whole energy inside my head just dropped to a nice relaxed level. So it's a wonderful place to be. 

Those moments of feeling relaxed are, are so great. Nice. Now, my wife would probably want to have like a tranquilizer dart gun around me because I'm always go, go, go and she'd love to just kind of dart me in the neck and have me relax one way or another. Um As my daughter says, I'm a little extra, I'm like, what, what does that mean? Uh But there are moments I, I can get relaxed. I go camping from time to time and get into nature and hang in a hammock and all those good things. Uh now you've worked for about 30 years as a humanist psychologist. Has that been the whole 30 years or is that something that's developed over more recently? But in, in 30 years really helping people kind of master themselves. 

Yes, it's kind of interesting because I didn't know I was a humanistic psychologist for the first, maybe 15 years of doing it. And when I, and then I did a master's degree which was about a humanistic psychology in practice as a change agent and a coach. And I did this master's degree and I found out that what I'd been doing for the last 15 years was humanistic psychology. And I had no idea. I, I just thought I was just kind of following my bliss, you know, just following my, which I was. But I, and, and I had a sort of philosophical perspective on what I was doing. 

You know, I really trusted that human beings, uh can, you know, they, they should be allowed to make their own choices and they can make their own choices and, and that you should treat them with respect and when you're working with them to help them, you are in service to them, you're not the boss of them. You know, I always felt those things and it wasn't till I did the masters and I found out that that is humanistic psychology right there. So, and is that what differs humanistic psychology from other psychology? Is that ability to have that free will and exercise it? It's very much about what they call respect for personhood, which you might also call sovereignty, the human spirit being respected as a sacred and special thing and that each of us has our own path. And for each of us, we choose our own path, whatever that may be and, and, and the rest of us should really respect that. 

I mean, I'm talking about adults obviously because Children need more different kinds of help from that. But you know, and the question of where does humanistic psychology begin and end? If you put a group of humanistic psychologists in a room together and ask that question and came back three weeks later, they would not have an answer for you. They, they would just talk about it forever and come up with all kinds of options of what that right really means. So I think for me it's that, that very respectful, supportive and, and also the idea that we're all infinite that we have infinite capacities and infinite possibilities for growth, which, you know, at least the potential for that. I know that for a lot of us, there are barriers in place for that and circumstances that make it difficult for us to do that. So I, I acknowledge that and respect that, but bearing that in mind, I feel like we all have the, the, the potential for being infinite. 

I, I love that in the sense of, you know, I, I've uh over the years been certified in disc uh assessments, Myers Briggs Assessments and you know, one of the traps people tend to fall into is thinking that the, the assessments results say this is the only way you can behave and think yet if you pay attention to the content and that the folks behind the scenes of those assessments, what they're saying is that you have the, despite these preferences, you may have, you have the capability to act in these other categories, these types of behaviors and mindsets that we see in these other uh categories. We're just helping to identify what you do more often. And, and I, I like to stress that when I do a disc session or a Myers brigg session that you can, if you're, you know, preferenced towards extroversion, you can have times where you prefer to be introverted and not be around people. Um and, and be in the zone and in your own head, you can do that, you know, it doesn't say you cannot, it just says this is what you tend to lean towards if you don't think about it. Uh And same with like, you know, thinking with the senses as opposed to big picture or what can be, you can, you can do the opposite of whatever your results are. Uh and neuro plasticity kind of the same way. 

You know, I think you wrote a book called Why people think they can't dance and they probably really can. Uh you know how many people tell themselves. I can't sing, I can't dance. I can't write, I'm not good at blank, blank, blank. Um But the reality is with enough determination, practice, you can and you probably could already do it now. 

Yes, that dance one was very interesting because one of the kind of side things I do is conscious dance facilitation. And I had so many people come up to me and say I can't dance and every single one of them, if they actually showed up for a session and got on the dance floor, sometimes they were terrified to begin with. But within like 10 minutes, they are dancing, they may not look like they're dancing according to what people think dancing should look like. But they are dancing their own way. And afterwards they come up to me and they say I can't believe it. And I'm thinking up the way it work. Um I'm happy to say that I have to my credit two high school dance performances on stage in front of an audience. Um Yeah, nothing that's going to get me into like a ballet theater or anything. But my daughter was on our high school dance team and they had a father daughter dance number and out of 50 girls on the dance team, 15 to 20 of them were able to convince their dads, hey, get on stage with me. 

We'll teach you choreography. Uh You may not be the greatest person in the show. That's OK. It's just about being up there and supporting us and um it was nice to see, you know, 15 to 20 brave dads get up there and the horror in our face though when we got out there were like, we're really up here guys, we're really up here. We're, they're gonna laugh at us and both times uh my daughter Corey, the second one, it was her senior year. Um But both times it opens with like freestyle for eight seconds or eight counts which feels like an eternity. Um And that, you know, if you don't want to freestyle these guys, it's, you're on your own. There's no choreography and I'm up here thinking, what do I do? Alright. I'm gonna do the sprinkler and I'm gonna do the shopping cart. 

I'm gonna do the uh I looked over and one of my buddies was doing the, the running man from like the 19 nineties and I'm like, yes, we are all showing our age right now and we just like, let go, we had fun with it by the time the daughters got on stage and linked up with all of us. Um And we went into the choreography like we were into it, like people cheered us on and uh we came out that like we're giving each other high fives like we were actually pro dancers and uh you know, it's just, you're never really gonna know what you can do until you actually get out there and do it. And um, and I think in, in some ways, kind of unpack, you know, those limiting beliefs we have of ourselves because I think that's what took, you know, these men to get on stage and dance in support of their daughters who had been on these dance teams for years was to get past anything that would limit us saying, you know, men don't dance, you know, and especially don't dance in a girls high school dance, you know, show and, and, but here we were doing that. 

Well, I, I'm very impressed that you did that. I think that's fantastic. What a great gift for your daughter. Oh, man, she still talks about it like they have it on DVD. So every so often they bust that DVD out and we watch that in front of company and I'm like, yeah, we're doing this, OK, this is awesome. I love that. I, I loved it. It was, uh, it was fun. 

I'm not gonna lie both times. A lot of fun. Uh, did her sophomore year pandemic of course, hit her junior year. So we didn't do it then, but senior year was back. It was her last chance. And I was actually sick that, that day, like I, um, just did not feel well at all and I didn't get a chance to rehearse because I was living six hours away in Dallas. 

She was in Corpus Christi and it was clear, I did not get a chance to learn the dance moves. But that morning I woke up, I told my wife I gotta be here. I gotta do this and, and I learned it and my daughter had gone to school. She came home, she was like, dad, it's OK if you can't do this, I'm like, hold on, tell me how I'm doing right now and we put the music on. I did the routine. I made a bunch of mistakes, but she was like, you were like 75% of the way there and I thought you weren't going to have any of it done. Uh All right, let's, let's spend about an hour or two just to clean it up and she was excited just the way she lit up and uh you know, like honed it in and had a smile on her face. 

She went from, I love my dad for coming down here to be a part of this to my dad's the best and I'm going to share that the rest of my life. Um, hopefully she does too. And, uh, yeah, it's, that's a gift when we step outside, what's comfortable for us, for someone, we love a gift. You know, if, if we're surrounded by people who we love who are like, no, I'm not going to kind of step outside what's comfortable for me. We, we feel sort of let down, don't we? It's just that wonderful feeling when someone steps up like that. Yeah. You know, it's definitely not going on my list of regrets, that's for sure. 

It's going on the opposite list. Like I'm glad I was there. Uh My daughter is glad I was there. My wife brags about it from time to time like, yeah, that still has points with her. I love it. You can't have too many points with your partner. I know. Right. Yeah, especially with all the mistakes. 

I make all the points help. So get all the points I can. Uh Yeah, but talking about this is making me think of something that you've talked about on other shows and you talk about on your own podcast, you know, around self mastery and, and that is, you know, to get there first, we got to take time to reflect on ourselves and uh you used a phrase called or, or a phrase that was new to me and that was dismantling structures in our mind. Uh Tell, tell us more about that, like, what does it mean to dismantle the structures in our mind? And why is it important to do that? Well, 1st, 1st of all, why on earth have we got structures in our mind to begin with? And so when we're born, we're just, you know, we just want to eat basically and be kept warm and stuff. So we don't really have any structures in our heads. But as we grow up and we start to socialize and we want to make our way in the world and we don't want to spend our entire time working out how to do every single thing we want to do in our lives. 

We need to put some of that into um kind of automatic like what, you know, the, the example of driving a car, you know, you learn to drive a car and then you're not thinking about every single bit of it every time you do it because you've, you've created a structure inside yourself which will automatically do it for you. So some of the structures we have in our minds are to keep us safe. Some of them are to keep us productive. Some, some of them are to help us actually deal with the physical practicalities of life. You know, how do I brush my teeth? Where do I keep my toothbrush? Do I cook a meal? 

How do I deal with getting to work on time. How do I deal with all the tasks? So we create all these structures in our head, many of which we've created without knowing that we're doing it. Some of them, we've done intentionally, some of them we've done, we've gone on a course. We've read a book and we've intentionally trained ourselves in a certain way, but we've ended up with this whole kind of structure, a skyscraper in our head of all these things, many of which are just running without any supervision without any obvious conscious supervision on our part. 

Now, what that means is, if we want to make a change in our lives, we want to evolve and grow. Some of those structures in our mind are not designed to allow us to grow change. So sometimes we need to actually dismantle some of it to create a bit of space so that we can grow. And like if you put an extension on your house, you might need to take a wall down to enable you to do that. You might need to shift something else around inside the house. In order to be able to do that, you can't just build on the top of it. 

Sometimes you can, but sometimes you can't. So the, the structures we most need to dismantle are the ones which originally we put up for a reason. A good reason in the first place. But that good reason is no longer valid now. So for example, we're no longer six years old, we're no longer, 15 years old, we're no longer 25 years old. So some of the structures we needed then we don't need now. And some of them are actually getting in the way of us growing and changing today. So one other thing I really must say about that, sometimes people listen to me say this and they think, oh, I've got to unstructured everything in my head and I would say, hold on, don't do that because a lot of the structures in your head are still incredibly necessary. And the other thing is some of the structures are actually leaning on other structures. So if you whip out the structure at the bottom, other things are going to collapse. So you've got to be very careful again, like if you are refurbishing your house, you want to put a hole in the wall to make a doorway. 

You put some, I don't know if you got, if you call them the same thing over there acro props, you have acro props over there are those like house plants. No, no, no, they're like um they're like um if you're going to knock down a wall inside a house, you don't want the floor above to collapse. We saw, we say load bearing wall. Yeah, right. Load bearing wall. But before you take it down, you've got to put up these like structures that are going to hold up the ceiling so that when you take the wall down, the ceiling doesn't collapse. So if you want to destruct things in your head, sometimes you've got to put up temporary supports so that the rest of the structure doesn't fall down. So you have to do it very, very carefully over time and really think about what you're doing and not just go right. 

I'm going to smash everything in my head. I, I love that uh on a number of levels, you know, as a learning development person uh and instructional design. And we talk about cognitive learning theory and one of the key components in cognitive learning theory is that we, we bucket things into what they call schemas. So how do we know a bird is a bird? Well, most people in the western world have the idea of a sparrow. And so if it looks like a sparrow, if it's a crow, a chicken, an ostrich, if we could somehow link it back to a sparrow very quickly, we're like, oh, that is a bird. Why it has wings? It has these weird looking feet. 

It's got a beak, it's got feathers, all those things. Uh And then on deeper levels, we have, you know, the structures, the schemas that say, you know, what is a couple, what is a family, what is um spirituality, you know, what is supernatural versus natural? Like all those are tied into these schemas or structures and, and that takes, that makes total sense. And I'm thinking about like, uh from our personal journey. So my wife and I were, were Christians. Uh we were involved in Christian ministry for many years. 

We even based our own marriage off of biblical principles. And I remember, uh gosh, it was about a decade ago, maybe a little bit more, probably a little bit more um that the, in the US that the, the fight for same sex marriage comes about. And I, and I'm seeing the knee jerk reaction from the Christian community like, oh no, it says clearly man and woman and that is it and which we still hold true. And at the same time, it challenged those structures in my mind of, well, if I take that stance wholeheartedly without any bend whatsoever, what do I say to my family members and friends who I know are from the LGBT Q community or um life? And, and it was just like I, I don't believe I need to ostracize them either. I don't believe my faith is about shutting them out, shunning them. Uh If anything, it has to be the opposite. So what is this new structure? What is it? That's not working? Uh what is working? And it, it took roughly, gosh, it took days to get to an initial point where I'm like, OK, I can at least land on my wife and I have chosen from our own sense of free will that our marriage will be a Christian based marriage. And I'll just start there and I'll just keep exploring this. It was a good, I think year for me to finally land on many of the other new beliefs I have that still hold my Christian values and beliefs intact and express love and acceptance for those who are not in that same mold. Um And, and, and so I think the point I wanted to make there is that, you know, sometimes dismantling these structures in our mind could take some time. And I don't know if you've run into the same thing Katherine in the work you do. Um you know, it's not like you just do one workshop and everybody's cured of all their limiting beliefs. 

I think we've got to be committed uh to evaluating what is working, what isn't working. And uh how, how do you see that in the work that you do? Well, first, just let me say what a beautiful example that was. And um I just want to highlight that the role of love in the way you described it. And I think when, when we're looking at the structures in our head and how we want to review them and maybe redesign them a bit or take some of them down, sometimes a powerful principle like love for example or truth is a, is a very helpful guide because then that helps us to connect with what's really important and to recognize the difference between what's really important and what's temporary and useful for a, for a limited reason. And I just really wanted to answer, say that to you. But would you mind, please just telling me the question again what you said? I think it was just like, what could you add to that? The idea that, you know, dismantling structures could take time? Totally. Yeah. You know, you, if you try and rush it, then you might bruise yourself, you might actually hurt yourself and you also might risk some of the things you're trying to do in your life. So most of us are trying to actually work um keep our relationships going, keep our health going. And many of those things are supported by the structures that we have. So we need to keep, we need to protect what we have whilst at the same time as you said, reflecting and questioning and inquiring and then over time, then we put new structures in, but sometimes, sometimes we can make changes very quickly and sometimes we can't, we just really need to follow our own, our own intuition of what feels right for us. 

Yeah, that makes sense too. Um Because sometimes there are those trigger moments where you're like, I, I think maybe another structure comes into play and I'm trying to think of um an example more recently. But um I know in the u there was a series of, you know, Asian hate crimes happening. 

And, uh you know, just seeing how derogatory, doing an Asian accent when you tell a joke, I'm, I'm half Asian. So, um you know, even I catch myself doing, you know, accents to make fun of my mom's accent and it's like, wait a sec, you know, I'm kind of degrading uh the value of an Asian culture, uh by imitating an accent. Uh and, and, and just seeing that, you know, that is a form of discrimination or degrading another group of people, uh which goes against my values. It was that aha moment that said OK, no more. Uh And so I can see that that there, there are moments where we just recognize no, there is a value or a structure or uh a core belief that I hold more importantly than whatever this other thing is. And I will no longer do that thing. 

It's harmful to people or um it's not true to who I am, that kind of thing. I could, I could see that that makes you, yeah. And I, and I love the idea of people doing that kind of inquiry and really reflecting rather than running around trying to find a menu of how to be. So they don't have to think about it. I think finding a menu of how we're supposed to be with it. And so we don't have to think about it. 

There, there in lies, deadness and dare I say it, the rut, you know, that's, that's where the rut is when you're, when you're no longer actually in your experience and questioning and reflecting. Yes. Yes. And just regurgitating, you know, some meme you got off of Twitter or uh talking points from a new show or a movie. Even, I've seen people use movies as actual data and facts and like that was fiction, you know, that there is no planet Pandora we know of yet. Uh Yeah. Uh but that reminds me there was something you put in the notes when we scheduled this time together that, you know, I'm a big believer in life's too short to stay stuck in a rut or to live stuck in a rut. So how do we look at our faith, our family life, our fitness, our finances, our growth towards the future to get unstuck as quickly as possible and stay unstuck. And you had said something in the, in the notes that there is value in staying in that rut just a little bit longer and it caught my attention. It was probably the phrase that said. 

All right, I made a good choice. This is awesome. We're going to talk about this. Um So what is the benefit? Like, what do you mean by staying in the rut just a little bit longer? And why is it that could be a value for us? So, so you get the idea in your head that you're in a rut? OK. And so the first question is, are you really in a rut or are you just having a hard time today or at the moment? And that's, it's really important to ask that question because it's possible and I've done this myself. 

It's possible to decide that I'm in a rut and then throw my life over and move house change, relationship, get a new haircut, you know, whatever. Because I think I'm in a rut and then look back and go, oh God, I've just run away from something, but actually it might have been better if I'd stayed there and, and dealt with. And the thing I run away from is actually come with me because it's inside me. And that danger, the danger is of running away from yourself when you think what you're doing is, is getting out of a rut. So that, that's the first reason why it's a good idea to just kind of pause for a second. And the second reason is to just say to yourself. 

Well, ok, let's say I'm in a rut. How did I get here? Why am I here? Which parts of me actually wanted me to be in this current situation because it's, I didn't just, I wasn't just dropped in here from above, you know, I, I actually built this over time, particularly if I'm an adult, you know, let's say I'm 45 years old or 63 years old or whatever. And I think I'm in a rat. Well, whose rat is that? How did that rat happen? It wa it probably was not done to you. It was, you probably built that rut, right. What part of you built that rut? And you probably built it for a really good reason or some really good reasons at some point in time. So, what were those reasons? Are those reasons still true? Now, if they are, then maybe you are where you're supposed to be, but you need to make some improvements where you are and what are those? Or if those reasons are no longer valid, then what is valid now? And what is it that you really, what life is it that you really want? And then what is the most intelligent transition from where you are now to the way you want your life to be? 

What's the intelligent, measured sane, um healthful life affirming, loving to everyone around you transition from one to the other. So you're neither just, you're neither just lying down in the, in your rat nor are you leaping out of your run and trying to run away from yourself again? It's back to this reflection thing. You're, you're pausing and you're first acknowledging and admitting that the rut you're in is probably of your own making and I'm not saying, beat yourself up and, and blame yourself for that. I'm saying, please don't do that, say thank you to the parts of you that built that rut because they did it in kindness to you. 

Maybe the younger self of you say thank you to the younger self. And now do you mind if I just kind of review and the younger self will say that's totally cool. You know, you seem to know more than I do right now. So you can review and then you can choose where you want to go and choose the transition. So you're in control, you're making your own choice as a free human being in line with your own, your own values and principles and what's really important to you. I love that. Um It's, it's almost like where's my fingerprint in the situation I'm in or where, where do I have a hand in this or where's my DNA in this over the years? And especially if like you had said, if I'm going from job to job to job every 2 to 3 years, because at the end of the 2 to 3 years, I'm, I don't know whatever the, the issue is, but it's the same issue every time chances are, it's not the places I'm going into that are the problem but myself. And yeah, taking that time before you take another leap into another role in another company before I do that before I, you know, go to another company for 2 to 3 years. 

What is the thing I could work on for myself that I'm self sabotaging my growth, uh my career path, my income growth, all those things. It, and sometimes the reality is you just have a penchant for diving into toxic environments. Who knows? You know, and maybe that is the thing. Um But, you know, I, I, I also believe that there's something we can always work on in ourselves. And uh the first part of my book that's coming out beyond the rut and by, by the time this episode airs, it will already be out. 

That was a shameless plug everybody. Yes, you can write me an email about it saying what you're saying, Jerry is, you're going to publish a book called Beyond The Rut. I really, I think it's uh beyond the rut. 

Create a life worth living in your faith, family and career. So how do I pursue the success in business or career and be true to my faith and keep my family and thrive in my family at the same time? So that's the message in that, in that three part journey of recognize the rut you're in. So like what we're talking about right now is that stage of what is the rut I'm in? How is it impacting the different areas of my life? Where am I playing a role in that? And um and from there, you start to transition into understanding where it is you want to go. So the U um and but before you get there, you got to know, through dismounting those structures, what are the, the thinking patterns I have that are limiting me or hampering my progress or hurting my relationships? Um And I love this part of stick around just long enough or longer to find out what is it that I'm bringing to the table? Because maybe it's how I'm interacting with people and treating people. And if I could just change that, you know, what does that do for my career? 

What does that do for my home relationship with my spouse, my partner, my Children, um extended family, my neighbors, all those things. So that is just huge. And then, you know, when is it time to say, OK, now I can move forward and get out of this rut. Yeah, and the time really is when your whole being wants to move on and our whole being is made up of many different components. So sometimes we need to have a bit of a negotiation inside of ourselves. And it says, you know, one part of me is ready and another part of me is not ready. So, you know, when are we going to kind of do it? Um And the other thing to remember is that being in a rut is safe and comfortable and secure. So when we move out of a rut, there's some risk involved. So we need to be ready for that and be aware of that and also be aware that sometimes it's really healthy to just hunker down and be comfortable and rest and regroup ourselves and then move again. 

Also, firmly, believe in that too. We got to be able to recharge our batteries, you know, in a sense, you know, that and not just on physical level, you know, I need physical rest, you know, that's important, but that emotional rest too. Maybe I'm getting caught up in a lot of arguments and I feel like I've got to win them all. Well, if I just took a step back from all that and just didn't have to win and, uh, just be, and, and get away from it all and think about what does matter most and, and I, I've done that. I've gone on like, two and three day hikes into the wilderness with a very light backpack and every time I've come out of there thinking, you know, what, that argument I'm having at work, that battle for that project really does not matter it. 

Uh, how do I come back and just support the other person's idea and, and fully support it and, and it's funny like the following Monday I come in, I'm like, all right, I've had time to think over the weekend. I want to go with your idea too. And they're like, what? And it's like, yeah. So, um, I, I've got some ideas, I can support what you're doing, but let's put yours up and let's, let's just pursue that. We got we got an ultimate mission we're trying to accomplish and, um, and, and just doing something like that, you see the shock at first, but then all of a sudden there's, there's added trust. 

There's, wow, you know, Jerry gave up his own fame in a project to help me succeed in mine. Um And you would think that would be a career killer for you, but it really isn't. Uh, it, it's a weird, um, what do you call that? Like a dichotomy in a sense or a weird oxymoron that if you help other people, you know, we tend to think that takes the spotlight off of ourselves, but in some weird way, it puts a brighter spotlight on what we do and bring to the table. Absolutely. Well, we're in a culture in the western world where the idea that of spotlight is, is really, um, overblown. 

You know, this idea that you've got to be in the spotlight in charge of the boss. And it's so not true. It's so not true. And it's very sad as well because not everyone, not everyone is designed to be in the spotlight, not everyone likes it and no one is designed to be in the spotlight all the time. So it sounds like an intelligent response on your part. I must say thank you. 

I don't always land there. So, but what I do, um I, I love this conversation we're having, but we're also running out of time, sadly, but you have a podcast out there called Truth and Transcendence. And the end is an amp stand if I remember correctly, uh, not the actual work, tell us about truth and transcendence. Yeah. So that sort of started, um, in just over a year and a half ago. And I did one of those, uh, exercises where you, you do a kind of intuitive exercise. You end up with two words for the, for your project, right? And the two words that came out were truth and transcendence. And I thought that's fantastic. 

I love those words. And my notion really is that when we find and connect with our truth, then we can transcend. And to me, that's always been true in my life. You know, if I want to move forward, the first thing for me to do is to find my truth in the situation and then I can transcend. So the idea of the podcast is to really follow that message and explore that message with the intention of helping the leaders today who want to be part of the solution in our interesting world right now with everything that's going on. And I like to think that the majority of the leaders out there really want to be part of the solution. So the purpose of my podcast is to support and assist those people love that. And I know for sure because that's where I was listening to your show, you can find it on Apple podcasts. Where else can people find your podcast? 

Yes, they, they can actually find it through a browser. So if you go um truth and transcendence with the, and A N D truth and transcendence, all one word dot Buzz Sprout, B U double Z S pr O U T dot com, you will find it. So that's if you, if you, if you don't want to be doing it on your phone or through an app and you just want to go on a browser. That's another way of finding it. Love that, love that and buzz by the way is they don't sponsor the show. 

I just love them because I've been using them since 2019. Great host. If you want to start a podcast, everybody, you get a free website very simple to use. Uh And the, the stats are easy to understand and it, it's a good price to value point. I believe so. Anyway, a little side note there for anybody who's aspiring to be a podcast podcaster. There we go. Um Catherine, it was great to have you on the show. But before we go, any final words of wisdom, you want to share with everybody listening in. Thank you. Um Yeah, just wherever you are, whether you think you're in a rut or not, uh Just remember you're probably doing your best and I realize that can sound a bit condescending. 

I don't mean it that way. But it's a really good thing to pause and go. Hold on a minute. Am I doing my best? I probably am great. So let's just let go of any self criticism and just take a look from that, from that place of moving forward rather from a place of, of blaming ourselves for, for putting ourselves in a rut that we shouldn't be in. Because when you blame yourself like that, you, you, you, you really are stuck then when you do that. So I would say a bit of self love and a bit of self forgiveness is always good to remember. It's like the Beatles said, all you need is love, right? Falling in love. Katherine. Thank you for being on this show. It was great to have this conversation with you and share it with everybody else. Thank you. It was wonderful to be here. Now, I hope you got a lot out of that conversation I had with Catherine and not just get soothed by that by the voice of hers. Uh because there was a lot of content in here. If you want to know more about uh what Catherine has to offer or find some of the resources we talked about in this episode, go check out the show notes at beyond theru dot com slash 373. Now, the best way you can pay this show back is to pay it forward. So hit the share button right now. And send this to somebody, you know, who would appreciate it. Now, I enjoyed spending time with you in this episode and I look forward to our time together on the next episode. But until next time, go live life beyond the rut, take care.