I would just say be realistic, you know, as a project manager, I'm very realistic about what can be done. But yeah, just um keep first things first focus on that teamwork and relationship and then I think that will pay huge dividends in the long run. Do you feel like you're stuck in a rut in life or in a dead end job with no progression? 

I'm Jerry Dugan and welcome to Beyond the Rut, the podcast that offers you the motivation, inspiration and practical tool to help you build a life worth living. My show is here to help you break free from your limitations and find a path to success. Join me as I share encouraging stories and actionable advice on how to get out of your rut in life and create a vision for your future. Life is just too short to live, stuck in a rut. Here we go. Hey, what is going on red, our nation? This is Jerry from Beyond the rut. And our special guest in this episode is Hillary Kinney. 

Now, she is the author of a book called Project Management for Parents and she takes her 17 years of experience as a project manager with a Fortune five company, we're gonna share with you how you can apply some simple project management skills to really improve the communication in your family. Get things done, get along and thrive together. So sit back, relax, grab a notebook and a pen. Here we go. Alright. Hey Hillary, thanks for joining me on the show. How are you doing? I'm great, Jerry. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Yeah, we were chatting just before I hit record and I almost forgot we had to actually record an interview. And so uh I'm glad I snapped out of that. 

A DH D moment. Now, uh now we met through Pod Match. Uh which uh I, I know you've heard me say it on other episodes, folks. Uh But for those who are new, uh pod match is kind of like uh if a podcast directory and a dating website got together had a baby, it would be pod match. So it links hosts and guests together. 

That's how I met Hillary. Uh I've met a bunch of other great guests on the show. Um Got to even deepen my friendship with Alex Sanfilippo uh through the form of support tickets. So, Alex is a great, yeah, Alex is a great guy. I don't know if you've met him, Hillary. Um Oh man, really neat guy. 

He's got a heart for helping podcasters succeed. And uh this is one of those platforms where I saw it when it was in beta. And I was like, huh? That's kind of cute. You know, someday it'll be nice and then two years later help them along. 

Yeah, everybody's talking about it. I'm like, what is this pod match thing? And I get on and I love it. It's great. It's super easy. And, yeah, it's a great way to find good, good matches. 

I'm like, hey, I think we'd be a good pod match. What do you think? And then, you know, it works or it does it, you know. Exactly. And, and like at first my worry was like, you wouldn't find that niche. That is yours. And so there's that temptation to hit everybody up like, hey, you know, I can kind of stretch quite widely uh to meet your message and, and then after all, you're like, wait, there's a bunch of folks that are just as niche down as I am that are hitting my target audience. 

I could help their audience easily. Let's just do that. Uh And so it's, it's helped me say, no, I don't know if that's helped you. Yeah, I've definitely learned to narrow it down because at first I was like, oh, I want to talk to everyone and I'm like, well, it's not quite as applicable to their audience and, you know, time is valuable. So target wisely was it that said he who defends everywhere, defends nowhere? 

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, it's kind of the same thing if you try to hit everybody, you really hit nobody. Right. Yeah. And, and I think that makes sense though because your background is in project management and it's probably the same thing. 

If you try to do everything in your project, you really wind up doing nothing in your project rolled out. Exactly. It would never be done. Right. That, that specificity, that focus, that prioritization is very key. Um Now your background, I didn't say this in the intro. So I get to brag about you a little bit. 

You've worked in hotel administration for a while, the, the hospitality industry. Um You went to places like Cornell University. Um Oh man, I got a friend who would love that. She also graduated from Cornell uh red, right? She's never said that. But anyway, that's not important. What is important? You pick up some really good, important certifications that I know are hard to get like project management professional from PM. 

I um I've, I've got a friend who got one of those and she studied for a long time and I'm like, it's a big test. It's a four hour test. Yeah, it's a lot. But I love it. I love project management. So I geeked out on it while I was studying, I studied a little too much. 

I had to like narrow down and focus on the tests. So, so enamored with the theory, they're like Hillary, you're not going to pass, you got to get to the practical stuff. I'm like, ok. Ok. Ok. I will learn to do. Yes. It's like the, the Gauntlet from, uh, was it the Avengers end game? Um, probably not. But anyway, I haven't seen that much. Oh, it's ok. It's ok. I'm just geek out. Um, and then you got to change practitioner certification from pro, is that, how do you say it pro or pro pro? 

Um, and it's a Change Management Leadership Center. And uh and if you're not familiar with change management, you'll probably hear about it from us in the next few minutes. Um But you also have a family. You're married, you got some kids, you got a dog that we talked about, uh tell us about them just a little bit. Um because we don't want people saying, hey, let's go visit them because then that's creepy and we don't want that. 

So, um my husband and I just celebrated our 19 year wedding anniversary. So we're excited we met at church. So, um yeah, it's been great. Um We've been living in the same house that whole time and we have a beautiful son who just turned 11. Um And we have a very, um slightly naughty hound dog as well. So we adopted about uh 2.5 years ago. So gets in the recycling and everything you said. Yeah. And we love the outdoors, love to go hiking and camping and, um, you know, be outside and we're pretty active. 

Yeah, we like to be out and about on, on adventures. Having now we actually got you on here to talk about, like, your professional background, how it's actually applicable to, um, you know, family life and, and in some ways, I mean, project management skills and principles apply to when you're planning for a camping trip. But it sounds like that during the COVID-19 pandemic, uh, you noticed a couple of things, uh, as far as parenting at home, tell us about what were some of those trends that parents experienced uh, during the pandemic when we had those lockdown orders and work from home? Yeah, absolutely. So, it was such a strange time, right? 

We're all like at home, you don't know what's happening in the world and all of a sudden, like everything is happening at home, like your kid on a computer doing, you know, writing class and you're trying to get your work done and then your kid needs some after school activities to do because they can't go outside. And, you know, you've got to figure all this out and everything's really overwhelming because no one knows what's happening and there's so much change going on in the world. We're just like stressed out and, um, and then I started hearing from other parents just, you know, through social media. Yeah. Just the sort of overwhelm that they were feeling too. So it started as sort of this emotion of like, oh my goodness, what is happening? 

Like, you can't quite get your head around it. And then I kind of got this feeling like, you know, this feels a lot like work when we have this huge project that this, you know, executive is saying you have to roll out right away. You don't have enough money and you have like two people, two resources to get it done because they don't have other resources to commit to this project. But, you know, it's got to get done and sort of that similar, similar feeling like of, oh my goodness, how are we going to do this? Um So it was just, it just started out as a thought. I was like, you know, you know, this is what I do every day at work. I take really big projects and I use techniques and break them down to make them me miserable. So I started thinking of, OK, what are some things that we could do at home just with so much change and so much going on and my husband and I tried to coordinate my son's school because, you know, we're both working from home. How do we coordinate that? Keep those communication lines open and support our son so he can be successful at school, but we also need to be successful at work too, right? Um So, you know, we started doing um you know, daily check in meetings at breakfast, which is basically like a project status meeting where we'd be like, ok, my husband would be like, ok, I'll take him in the morning and then I've got this meeting. Can you cover this hour? And then I'll be like, ok, I'll do this. 

I've got this meeting and then, you know, I'll take him to the playground on this at this time. So we're basically having project update meetings during breakfast to just talk about all the things that needed to happen. Um And it was just a direct transfer of what I do at work. Um And then trying to keep track of what my son needed to do for school and his assignments, you know, I, I had a white board and I started just writing down his homework assignments, which is basically a task at, you know, your project planned for the day. Um So it's again another direct transfer of what I would do at work just in a much more simplified format. So I found it really useful and um and I posted about it on linkedin. 

I was like, hey, here are some things that could help and it was like five tips of what people can do and it just kind of took off from there and people found it really helpful. Now, you didn't go as far as like to have minutes and an agenda. It was simply a super simple, just like, let's talk about it. I'm all about keeping things simple even at work, like, I work for a Fortune 500 company but I, I'm all for keep, use only the amount of process required to be faster and more organized. Don't overcomplicate it because it just slows you down and frustrates people. So just enough and the same thing at home. Like, we're not a business, you know, we're a family of people who love each other and we just want to get things done so we can go on more camping trips, right? 

Or, you know, spend less time doing the stuff to keep the household running and spend more time making memories. So what can we do with those professional principles to use in a manageable way so that we have time for those, you know, more fun things. And I can imagine that unlike at work when you're having these meetings with your spouse, uh, you can actually, like get all lovey dovey and no one's gonna contact hr you're not gonna get the call from hr that says, hey, you can kiss your, your project stakeholder. It doesn't matter. Exactly. So, uh just, just thought I'd point that out for the listeners. Uh Yeah, don't, don't bust out the clipboard, don't say all right. 

Today's agenda overdo it because it'll scare them off. Like, yeah, that's one thing people ask me about, they're like, well, what's that fine line? And it's, it's a little harder for me because I'm a professional project manager and I do that every day and I can very easily go into that task, like, get it done mode. But it's, it's important to keep a conscious note of this is my family. This is not work and, you know, we're just doing this to make things run more smoothly and not go into like sergeant mode as you said. And, um, just like, get it done because it just, yeah, it's not a good, it's not good for the relationship. But, you know, the other thing I think that's really important is, you know, at work, we, we build teams, right? And you go, you do team building activities with your co-workers. And as a project manager, when I have a new project, I'm always focusing on building those really relationships first and getting that foundation and that trust level built. 

And, um, so when people think about team building at work, I think it helps to think about team building at home too and, and think about, ok, how can we, you know, build strong, of course, you have good relationships at home, but how can you make them stronger or, you know, build skills in a way so that you guys work together better at home and open up those lines of communication. So there's other skills that you can apply to, to really build into your family to help build sort of like a foundation of team work to help you get that work done. Similar to what people do at work, you know, when you go bowling together or, you know, on different activities. Sounds like ice breakers, that sort of thing. Oh, hey, that's kind. So, did you and your husband do any icebreakers during the pandemic? 

Um, I got some, like, cards for ice breakers. Um, I'm trying to remember where I would ask questions. Like, so, you know, just like, what was your favorite part of the day? What was your least favorite part of the day? Just try to get that sharing going. Um And just ask, you know, insightful questions. How are you feeling about this? How are you feeling about that? Um And then, you know, doing activities together because I know, you know, doing activities together, like side by side is a great way to build relationship and understanding. 

So, like you were talking about going camping with your son and doing something together, it helps you understand each other and sort of understand how you work and doing those activities with your family are a great way. Um To sort of do that. Like, I always, like, they always say, like if you've been working with someone remotely, it's great when you meet them in person because it's much easier to communicate after that. And it's the same thing, you know, at home, the more time you spend just kind of doing stuff together, it sort of helps lay that foundation of when you really have to get something done, like, understanding how they communicate, you know, what, you know, what, what's their sense of humor, like, and how can you work together? Um, and it just makes it easier to get along too. I imagine there's a little bit of, um, bringing in team dynamics, uh, especially early on. 

Uh, some storming happens. That's a good point forming. Storming norm performing. Yeah. Yeah. First day or two it's like, oh, this is great. 

We're hunkered down together and then a few days later you're like, man, that guy chews loud. I know. Oh my goodness. These people are getting on my nerves, you know. Yeah, totally. And then I think it's also like with younger kids, it's different and teenagers, I think this is super helpful because, you know, they sort of become their own person and more independent and it's a great way to stay connected, just keep doing those activities together and keep those lines of communication open. 

You know, having those icebreakers, like, don't make it formal just like over dinner, you know, think of some fun question to ask or, you know, just to keep those conversations going so people can understand each other. Yeah, I love that at the core of all this is remembering the relationship. So we're talking about project management principles that can help you alleviate the stress, get organized at home. However, at the core of this, the why of this is it's to keep that relationship nice and strong, keep those channels of communication open and create that, that environment where it's psychologically safe to speak up and share. And I love that, that, that's at the core of that. And that's probably the most important thing that opens the door to share those um tasks that need to get done and talk that through and, and who's got responsibility over what? 

Yeah, and, and really get like their buy in, you know, we talked about, you know, just teed up change management earlier. Um And change management is a really powerful business principle and, and philosophy that we use tandem with project management and it's the people side of the change. And it's how do you support the people through the project to help them learn and, and accept the change and it's incredibly powerful and I wish the whole world knew about it because I think it's so impactful. But some of the, the key takeaways like you were talking about like it enables that support and there are certain things you can do um you know, really intentionally to get that support. And one of those things is involving your kids in the work, in the conversation, in the planning of the work and just start those conversations over the dinner table early, you know, just ask them, hey, we're thinking about going on a camping trip, you know, what do you want to eat? You know, and then they can have input in the menu and then they, they'll probably be more apt to help you cook it over the campfire later or, you know, where do you want to go? You know? You know, if, if, if they have input into the decision, you know, do you want to go to a lake or do you want to go to a mountain? 

You know, if they have input, they're going to be more apt to participate. So, bringing them in early, I know as parents, it can be a little strange. Right? Because we're sometimes if we fall into the trap of, oh, we're the parent, we're in charge, we're just going to um set the direction and they need to follow us. Um, but it's really powerful involving them in that decision making process, um to help them feel heard and listen and they'll participate more. Yeah. So it's a really, it's a really um powerful um principle and the other thing with kids that's really fascinating is, you know, our kids are learning and growing and changing every year and it helps build those executive function and planning skills in them. 

If you bring them along for that decision planning ride, right, you sort of involve them and you can see over time they start to pick up these skills and it's really powerful because that's what we want. Like eventually we want them to leave the home and go out there on their own and be successful. And if we involve them in these conversations and these planning sort of informal planning sessions, it helps build those skills and those problem solving skills too. Like, so if there's a, you know, an issue, um you know, so, oh, there's a hole in the tent. What are we going to do? You know, let's come up with some ideas of how we're going to fix it. Like if we're on the campground, do we have a, I don't know if we put a sandwich bag over it or, you know, do we go home or what do we do? And just, it sort of helps them build those skills. Um It is kind of fun. And my own son, I've seen that, you know, he's very good at planning his day. Like when he comes home from school, he'll be like, ok mom, I've got to do this chore and then I want to go play with my friends and then I've got to do, um, you know, this homework and then I want to add my screen time, you know, and he, he plans it out and that I think is a direct result of us having these conversations when he was younger of him, come, come home, he's like, ok, let's look at your list, let's see what you got to get done and we talk it through, right. So it just really helps them um in that way and start building those really important skills. 

Now, and that's huge because I know men in their forties who still need their parents to make decisions for them and get them out of trouble. And it's like, how do you not know to do these things? How do you not know? Um, and, and the scary thing is, is parents think they're helping by doing it for their kids. I mean, granted when they're young, of course, there are certain things and it has to be age appropriate, but just keep that in the back of the head of like, ok, what makes sense for the age that my child is at? What can they be involved in? And, um, how can I help build those skills in them? And as an empty nester, I can say what you're saying is very valid. Uh I've got a 19 year old and a 21 year old and they're making decisions for their own lives. 

They both live on their own. Uh, they've both decided. Thank you. I know. It's like, yes, they ain't coming back. No, I'm kidding. No. Granted, our daughter lives like a half mile down the road from us. 

But, uh she is doing her own thing like she works her own job. She's planning her own life. That's great. She's managing her own bills and I'm like, wow. Um, I did not do that when I was 19, you know, uh, and my son, 21 he's already in a supervisor role at, at work. And I'm thinking, wow, you must be so proud of him. Yeah. You know, because he got there without having to join the military. So uh a leadership role outside the military before the age of 21. Uh because he got that promotion a year, year and a half ago, so proud of that. And that, that's all him. 

You know, our part was um you know, learn to do that yourself, son. Um How would you like to fix that? Um Yeah, and just helping equipping them with those skills and giving them the opportunity to do it. And it's, it's made me a better delegator um, as well. You know, when you hand out a responsibility to your Children, um, it's theirs and all you're holding to is their commitment to their responsibility that they said they would take on. And um, and that translates to work, you know, it makes me a better delegator at work. And yeah, that's a good point. It translates to work too. And also I think the negotiation skills with our Children. Yes. Oh, yes. Oh, man. Especially when they're middle school, middle school I think was harder than when they got those. Yes. Good luck. My son's a crack negotiator. So. Oh, yeah, because middle school, um, sixth grade is fine because they're still kind of elementary. 

I, but getting exposed to what the 7th and 8th graders are, you know, I mean, the, the, I guess the spectrum of developing is so wide. 6th, 7th and 8th grade, you know, you get those that are still holding on to their childhood and their innocence. And then you have those who sadly have grown up way too fast and all of them are mixed together and it's clashing. And so by seventh grade they're pushing boundaries, they're talking back, they're, they're exercising what they've seen, their friends do that they've known since middle school or, you know, elementary school. Um for us, they, they started to chill out by high school. They were quiet for a bit and then junior senior year, it was like we got our kids back. 

You better get ready. We got middle school next year. There you go. Put on my boots. There you go. Yeah. And, and the key thing I would say is just keep doing what you're doing though, you know, keep the communication channels going, uh give them room to express themselves. Uh you know, question like a lot of things they learn as, as kids starts to hit reality around middle school if not sooner. And um you know, like is Santa Claus really not real? 

You know, it's like son, you're in seventh grade now. What the heck we told you this in fourth grade? It was like, I gotta tell him he didn't, he did not, it was probably soon it was probably sixth grade. But I remember having that conversation with my wife. Like we gotta tell him, Santa really is a made up thing, you know, like, how did he take it? 

He was like, I know it's just fun. I'm like, ok, but I guess he was in denial mode. Yeah. I, I don't think he was ready to let that go. His friends were all like, it's, it's stupid to like Santa. But, uh, anyway, that I, I took us on a little rabbit hole there. We're back now. I appreciate the advice for future parenting. 

We need to help each other out. Uh So you've shared with us some of the benefits you saw when you applied, you know, project management skills and practices at home, like those morning check ins with your husband, uh including the kids even and having them take on areas of responsibility, kind of establishing what are their tasks for the day and then having that communication board up, you know, I've seen that in health care uh where, you know, even in patient rooms, you know, what's my goal today as a patient, I want to be able to walk again or whatever it is. Um And so doing that at the home really does help. Not only get everybody on the same page, we know who's doing what you're also building those life learning skills, those life skills in your, your kids as they get older. And that's, that's really amazing to do. And, and that's applying some of that change management uh around getting buy in, see what people are resistant to giving them a channel to voice their concerns and so on. So I, I really love how that comes together. Uh And then guys, again, we, we are really pressing the importance of don't show up on the clipboard. 

You don't have to write it on an agenda. Don't bust out yesterday's project, project plan. And if you do, don't show your spouse just keep that they will run screaming to the other room, right? Um And I mean, now I heard you say on another show, I, I listened to a few interviews you had done with other podcasters. And uh something you had talked about even was the idea of not just handing out tasks but really like responsibility over a whole chain of events. So one of the examples was uh taking your dog to the vet, like, you know, the tasks would be things like schedule the appointment, another task will be take the dog to the appointment. 

Another task will be get the medicine. Um And rather than doling that out to multiple people, uh giving the opportunity for somebody to, to really own the process from start to finish. If I'll schedule the appointment, take the dog to the appointment, get the medication and then we'll, we'll work together or do something about the treatment after the fact. And um so why is it important to really look at that entire chain of tasks? And, and talk through uh responsibilities. It almost like a racy model in a sense like who's responsible, who's accountable. Um And the other two c and I, yeah, that's a really good point. 

That was a podcast with my friend Bart Burkey. Um Yeah. Yeah. So, uh most people don't. Um So, yeah, that, that is so important because, um, there's so much to do at home, you know, there's a lot to keep a household running and there's a lot of work. 

It's like this whole little ecosystem on its own in addition to, you know, our work office work or whatever work we do, plus the house, household work that has to happen. And um I think it's so important to think of the whole spectrum of tasks because I think we often just think of getting it done. But in project management as a project manager, my job is to plan, like I plan for the work. I think about the work, I think about what needs to be done. I follow up on the work. I make sure it's getting done and it's all part of the work. But for some reason that all gets forgotten about. 

I don't know why. So like when we think about, you know, grocery shopping, you just think about going to the store. But to go to the grocery store, you have to think about, you have to notice first that you need groceries, then you have to make the list and that's all part of that planning piece. And then you go to the store and then you come home and you put it away and then you have to say, oh, what did that do not have? Or what did I forget to get that? 

I need to add, like I forgot to get the eggs yesterday. I got to add eggs to the list for next time. And that's all part of work. Right. And, and it, it, that takes effort to do that. And in a household, you know, with your, with your spouse, it's really important to have those conversations of who's doing all those different pieces. And it's easier because there's so much going on if, you know, if I was talking to my husband, Jeff and said, ok, I'll make the appointment, you take him, I'll get the medicine. 

Um, I'll make the follow-up appointment. It's just a lot of back and forth and it's a lot of unnecessary work and it's just easier if one person owns it from start to finish and just keeps in mind all the different things that go along with it and it reduces that back and forth and that need for updates. Um, and then it reduces, um, sort of that effort required on the part of that person who may be in that planning role because they know that, oh, my spouse has got it. I don't even have to think about it because you probably or may or may not. But there's a term out there called the mental load. And it's referred to the mental effort it takes to plan and organize work at home, at work. That's just project management, right? 

It's the same thing. It's just at home. So just being aware of that is super important and traditionally, that's fallen to the female of the household. And it's brought up a lot. The pandemic has brought up a lot of conversations on where does that work fall because during the pandemic, a lot of women left the workforce because there was so much to do at home. So it just opens up that conversation for couples to say, ok, well, what makes sense for us? Like what makes sense for our family? 

Let's recognize that this is work and takes time and how we're going to organize around it. Like, you know, I handle the grocery shopping and cooking because I can cook. My husband can't, you know, it just kind of how it works and, you know, he, he does the dishes and does the laundry and that's just, and we sort of each handle our own areas. And I don't think about the laundry and he doesn't really think about the grocery shopping unless he wants something unusual on the list. And it just really helps, um, sort of ease the effort it takes to coordinate, it reduces that coordination effort and then you can just get it done on your own time. 

You don't have to, like, check in on, you know, is the appointment made, is the follow-up appointment made. Did you get the medicine? Um, and it just makes things easier? Right. You can just kind of do it, fit it in on your own schedule. Um, and then, you know, it gets taken care of and then you have, you know, more time to do fun stuff. And that makes sense to me because it probably takes just as much effort like taking a child to the doctor, for example, or a doctor, the vet, even if I had just one task in that whole line of things, like go pick up the medicine from the pharmacy that still requires planning, getting time carved out. Um And, and, and timing it as well. Like did the doctor put the prescription in and you know, that could create and this has happened. So I'm speaking from experience here, uh having to go back and forth like, hey, did the, the physician put the prescription in? Uh Great. Am I at the right pharmacy? No, I'm not. Oh man, the real pharmacy is a mile away. Dang. And I'm at the wrong one. It's like those communication breakdowns, right? And it's annoying, right. 

Let's reduce those, those opportunities for annoyance when it could just be super streamlined and you have all the information you need and you can just run with it and um and it's ok for, you know, dads to just take off from work and take care of their kids too. I, I don't know how socially we got to the expectation that, you know, it's the woman in the family who's expected to take time off from work and go take the child to the doctor. And, um, but it, it just, it's ingrained. I see it all the time. Even some of the most progressive organizations I've been in, um, you know, it, it's almost expected like, oh, hey, yeah, she's a mom. She's got to go take care of her child and then dad comes along and says, hey, I need to take some time off to take my child to this or that. And they look at you funny. 

It's like, don't look at me funny. I'm being an engaged dad. Leave me alone. Right. And I think we're at a really interesting point in time where the pandemic brought up a lot of these questions. So I think, you know, for the people are more aware of it than they were in the past. 

So, um, you know, people having conversations about it, um, you know, like we are right now and I think that's good. Like that's what helps promote change and, um, just people to figure out what works. I mean, I think we sort of fall into patterns that we may not be aware of and, um, it just brings up the opportunity like you know, sit down with your spouse and just ask them, hey, and this is all part of like project management, right? As project teams, as a project manager at work, I plan work based on resource, ability and capability, right? So if I need a data analyst first, I find one that's available and I find one that has the skills to do the job. If that person is not available, then I go to the next person. So it's the exact same thing at home. And the thing I love about project management because I love project management a lot. Is it kind of deep personal? 

Is it you can have these, what have been historically difficult conversations about how to get stuff done around the house in a very neutral way. You know, it's just like, hey, let's just talk about how do we want to get these tasks done? It doesn't have to be, you know, a guilt trip. It's just like, hey, let's identify everything that needs to get done at home or, hey, we're having a challenge with, you know, grocery shopping. We've, you know, we've been running low on food. Like I was talking to a coworker and um I was like, oh, are you having Panera today? 

He's like, yeah, we, we can, you know, we've been having trouble getting to the grocery store, you know, and he's got kids and I get it right and just have a conversation with your spouse. Hey, how can we make this go better? So we don't have to eat, take out or, you know, get lunch out and, you know, spend lots of money on, take out and just open up that conversation and, and what makes sense, like, you know, at that point in time, you know, it also depends on things like, you know, does your spouse have a long commute or a shorter commute? Like, can they fit it in on their, on their way home? And things are changing? Like for the first week, next week, my husband is going back to the office one day a week. So that's a change in our family schedule. And we have to talk about and rework school, drop off because he used to do school drop off, but now I'm going to do school drop off. So just have that conversation and say, hey, what's changed and, and how do we want to handle that? What makes sense based on our different schedules? 

Um, and our skills, like, I don't want my husband doing the cooking and he doesn't want to cook. So I do the cooking and that's fine. Sounds like it's safer that way too. Um, so yeah, that's what I love about it. You can just have a conversation and just say what makes sense and also just talk about, well, how are you feeling? 

What's your stress level like it, like if like at various points in our marriage like, if I had a big project at work, like if, if something big was rolling out and I was in that, like, super busy time at work, I would start feeling overwhelmed and I would communicate to that to my husband and he'd be like, ok, well, let's figure out what can we change at home to give you more time to, to, you know, get through this busy time. So, so at one point, like we brought in food delivery services because I was so busy at work, you know, let's just take that off our plates and we don't have to think about it. So you can sort of ebb and flow depending on what's going on in your family life to reduce the work that you need to do, either outsource it or, you know, put it on pause, like just agree to, ok, you know, we're going to hire a landscaper for a while because I don't have time to mow the lawn because I'm in this big project launch phase or I'm going to leave the Christmas decorations on the tree for three months because I don't have time to take them down. So, you know, and that's ok. You either push the work out till later, you know, project manager like, oh, that's phase two. It's not happening in phase out. We're gonna delay that work, either delay it, outsource it or decide not to do it and just to free up time to get the other work that you need to get done done. 

That makes me think about um like in the circles my wife and I have run in like how many wives just say they struggle with anxiety and coming to terms with their inability to do it all, you know, to, to work, to take care of the kids, take care of everything at home. And as I'm hearing you talk about that, you know, bringing project management principles to the home opens up and facilitates those conversations every single day about what needs to get done. All of a sudden, you've opened that door of, you know, these folks, not just the wives, I mean, the husbands who probably are holding on to things that they feel only they can do, they've got to get all these things done. Um, and by having that conversation, you realize, oh, this is everything that's on the plate. Now, let's divide this up. This makes more sense and you let go of phrases like I always take care of the laundry or I always do the cooking or I always do this because now you're talking about for our community, the family, what do we need, uh, what do we need right now? What do we need tomorrow? What do we not need to do anymore? And it's, I, I can just sense that relief of how I don't like. 

It's ok to talk about, you know, and it's so important because that anxiety and that overwhelm that women feel it impacts the relationship with the spouse. And, yeah, and so there's a psychological benefit to having that conversation and if, if your partner's stress levels go down, that's going to give you more time to have more fun together, build your relationship up. Um You know, and there's a lot of benefits to just, just checking in and seeing how things are going and, and um you know, depending on what's going on. So, yeah, I think um you know, to your point about women, we tend to hold it in and not talk about it, right? Because we think it's expected of us and I'm sure it would be a huge win. Can you imagine if I was a woman and my husband just came up to me and said, hey, hun, how are you doing? Like is there anything I can help you with? 

Let's talk about how we, oh my goodness, the amount of points that my spouse would score huge. So for Valentine's Day, my challenge to your listeners is go out and talk to your spouse and just say, hey, how's it going? How can we, you know, work together better as a team? You know, how can we, you know, organize the work around the house? That makes more sense for us, for our family because every family is different and it'll impact your relationship in a huge positive manner. Oh, yeah, especially those guys who are oblivious that our spouses are even struggling in the first place. Uh This is how you find out and this is how you could do a part and just ask and then, and then follow through, don't just ask, follow through and just take care of it, you know, like, say, ok, and even one thing, say, oh, ok, I'll handle the vet appointments, you know, and I'll take the dog, just handle one thing from start to finish. Just start small. You don't have to like reorganize. 

I mean, that's a lot. Just like, just try one thing or hey, I'll, uh, I don't know, I'll do the grocery shopping. Like sometimes my husband does that. He hates going to the grocery store. But, you know, if he knows I'm overwhelmed, he's like, hey, I'll go to the grocery store and I really appreciate it because I know he hates it and he does it and that's a huge, huge win. Yeah, for our relationship. So the book is called Project Management for Parents. 

Uh, your website is also the same name, project management for parents dot com. Um, where else can folks reach out to you if they want you to, like, speak for their organization or they want to hire you for project management? Oh, thank you. I like you. I'm on linkedin Hillary, Kinney P MP. And then, um, through my website you can email me and all my socials are on there too. Awesome. And any final words of wisdom before we go, I would just say be realistic, you know, as a project manager, I'm very realistic about what can be done. And I think um as ambitious individuals, you know, and I'm sure the listeners on this podcast are ambitious because they want to be productive, just be super realistic about what you can do in balancing your home life and your professional life and um implement some of these techniques that can help you. Um But yeah, just um keep first things first focus on that teamwork and relationship and then I think that'll pay huge dividends in the long run. 

Awesome Hillary, it was great to have you on the show. Um I lost track of time. How long we were talking? So obviously a great conversation. Uh Yes, I really enjoyed it. Now, I hope you got a lot of great nuggets and some fun because we laughed a lot in this episode. So hit the share button on. However you're listening to this right now and send this to a friend, a family member, a coworker or that neighbor across the street. In fact, if you lead a team of people and you know, they have families and they're working from home, share this with them, say, hey, this made me laugh. It gave me some great insights. I hope you can find some value in this as well. Now, if you want to see more of Hillary. I've got her information in the show notes. Just go to beyond the rut dot com slash 368. There. You'll find links to her show, uh her website, I should say uh to her book and my book and all those things that we talked about. Now, I'm glad you joined me for this episode and I look forward to joining you again on the next one. But until next time, go live life beyond the rut. Take care.