Then this is what I tell all the guys that are part of our community or any time I get asked this question, it's just do whatever he tells you to do, be obedient to the Holy Spirit. And that's gonna look a lot different for you than it's gonna look for me. But if you're just obedient to the Holy Spirit, I just think there's something beautiful about that. And then at that point, it's not really you anymore. You're just being obedient. Do you feel like you're stuck in a rut in life or in a dead end job with no progression? 

I'm Jerry Dugan and welcome to Beyond the Rut, the podcast that offers you the motivation, inspiration and practical tool to help you build a life worth living. My show is here to help you break free from your limitations and find a path to success. Join me as I share encouraging stories and actionable advice on how to get out of your rut in life and create a vision for your future life is just too short to live stuck in a rut. Here we go. Hey, Reder Nation, this is Jerry and this episode's special guest is Chris Granger. 

He's the founder of the Lion within us and he helps Christian men discover what it means to be masculine in today's world. You know, we hear a lot about what men cannot do, should not do, stop saying, stop doing all those things. Well, that's left is a void where we're wondering, what does it mean to be masculine? What does it mean to be a man? You know, these are a big part of our identity and it's a struggle many of us do. So, Chris is going to share with us how the line within us helps Christian men come together, have that fellowship and look at in a healthy way, what masculinity means in the Christian context. So grab a notebook, grab a pen, sit back, relax and here we go. All right. Hey, Chris, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. How are you, sir? Awesome. Having a great day, getting ready to network some podcasters later tonight. And I mean, I'm above ground. So I think I heard somebody say any day where I'm six ft above ground is, is good, I guess. 

Yeah, I mean, in my case, it's more like any time I'm five ft, four inches above ground. There you go. Yes, that's what I get for having a mom who's short and she's like four ft 11. She's tiny. So little. Now we got connected through a mutual friend. 

I believe Bob Wheatley who is an author of the book called Our Desires Within Our Hearts. Our Heart's Desire. OK. Don't tell Bob. I got that title. Wrong edit. Edit. No kidding. So, yeah, I, I got to have him as a guest on my show and he came across your path and he was like, you guys, I have like a very similar message, a very similar mission. 

You need to connect and we chatted a few weeks ago and I was like, yeah, I need to have Chris on my show. So, here we are. It's an honor, absolute honor to be here. Awesome. And you're based out of, oh, man, North Carolina, North Carolina. That's right. Yeah, my mom's in North Carolina. 

My stepdad too and both really good people, especially my stepdad. So, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah, I know. I sound like I'm from Jersey but believe it or not. I, yeah, you threw me with the accent. It was. Oh, man. Now you're, you're married, you've got four kids now as of a few months ago. So, what three girls? The youngest one is a son and we were just debating, not debating, but really having a conversation of, is that a blessing or a curse to your son? 

And, and I'm leaning towards it. Could be a blessing. You're thinking he's got hard times ahead. I think it could go either way, man. He's gonna have to be tough one way or another. But it's awesome. He threw me, he threw me off though because I, I was always, you know, promoting a girl dad stuff and hashtag girl dad on all my stuff and now I'm like, oh now I got a boy. So you know, but it's been pretty cool. 

Your son killed all your marketing, all the market went out. OK, cool. Got it. Oh man. Oh man, I love that. 

Yeah, we've got my wife and I have one of each so we have one boy, one girl, watch them fight each other most of their lives. Now they're adults. They still bicker as adults, but they get along a lot more now as well. And that's really cute to see it. It's when they decide to get a gift for each other and you know, our son, poor kid. I mean, his younger sister still picks on him, still gives him a hard time. Absolutely. Awesome. Now you founded an organization or a platform really called the Lion with us. 

There's a podcast with it. I believe you bring men together to, to grow and become the who God really intended them to be with a focus on their health, wealth and self. Tell us a little bit more about like how that got started and how it, how it operates. Um We're, we're going to go backwards from what I usually do. I want to dive in here first and then go into like, who is Chris? Absolutely. Yes. I mean, it gets started because I mean, I was a podcaster in my, my other job and learn that skill set and then God laid it on my heart, you know what you need to start a podcast that serves Christian men. And so we started that, that show and dropped it in, in 2022 we went live with in January. 

It's been Gangbusters man. It's been just awesome to watch how, how God has moved in that, with that podcast and with the guests and the connections and just the way we've been able to serve others. And it's always about focusing on serving others. So then we started the idea of, you know, what, you know, podcast is one of many. But I never, I really like connecting with people and having conversations and taking it to the next level. And when I looked at men's groups and churches, like it was just as bad. 

I mean, it, it across the board, it's just, it's a, it's a weak area. So I was like, you know what, we could be a, a good supplement for guys that, you know, that, that are want to grow in their faith. They're not getting it maybe served all the way 100% of their church or they're not comfortable with certain areas to talk about. So let's build a platform where these guys can come together and talk and connect and, you know, actually have some real conversations on how to grow and walk out this thing called the Bible and lead our lives, right? And, and whether from our, from our finances to our, to our health, to our marriages, to our parenting. So we built the platform and, and we, we started that in September and actually went full blown live with it in January. And we converted a bunch of our guys over and now it's a monthly program type subscription where these guys are in here and we meet daily. 

I mean, there's something going on inside the line within us pretty much every day. Whether it's me giving them scripture in the morning, we call that our daily spiritual kickoff or I just go live and I give the guys, we just read through the Bible and I give them what the Holy Spirit reveals to me. And then we have things like lion lunches, we have Bible studies, we have business brainstorming meetings. Once a month, I bring guests and we call our ask me anything events and they, those guys are able to, to ask previous guests insight questions and insights that's directly impacts them. So it's been wonderful just to see the engagement the way it's going through the roof and these guys are out there. We do a challenge every month too. 

I forgot about that. So the cha they really like the challenges because they just want the accountability and will to that ability to, you know, lean in and be part of a team because I, I kind of team them up when they come in too. So we had these little pods. So it's, it's neat. The guys get a lot of fulfillment is highly engaged. I never thought it'd be this way. 

I, I never knew what an online community was, you know, 18 months ago and now we're running one and just, just trying to be obedient and give guys a place that where they can actually lean in and be truthful and be honest, be open and transparent and it's a much needed space too. I was in a, a mastermind group the other day sharing with, you know, be on the rut, how I'm trying to niche down and like, really hone in on like a very specific message for a very specific group of people. And the response I got from one of the members in the group who's a psychologist shared with me that, you know, a space for men to come together and get guidance and encouragement on what it means to be a man in today's society is so needed. I mean, women have a good handle of who they are now in the modern world, what they're capable of what they want. And if you look at the messaging we've given to men, it's kind of like two sides of a coin on, on the one side, it's, you got to be this caricature of manhood, this really tough guy machismo. A drink beer. I belch, I'm very aloof when it comes to being a family man. 

You know, like the Tim Allen, you know, from Tool time. What was that Home Improvement was the show? Like Tim Allen persona? 

That's one side of the coin. But then the other side of the coin is there's nothing, it's like good luck guys. You're on your own and, you know, and a lot of men are just looking for, what is it to be a good man? You know, what does that mean? Now days I'm, I'm hearing all the things of what, not to be, but not what to be. And it's very important to have that. And, and so how have you seen the line within us fill that gap as well? 

It's more than just, you know, having a men's ministry at churches that don't have a strong one. You, you kind of fill in this other gap as well. Yeah, I mean, and that's, that is the gap because we were, you know, we're really not really to the point of working with churches directly yet, which I have started and some speaking. So I have a couple of engagements under my belt there, but primarily it's working with these guys, one on one, you know, like some of our Thursday night Bible studies, they're very topical. You know, we're, we do dive into the word for sure, but we usually try to make it around how can we simplify and apply God's word to a situation in our life. And so like this week, for instance, we just, we just finished talking about, we're going through a series on was Jesus a manly man. So last week we talked about how, what is a manly man? You know what, what makes a manly man? And this week when we talking about what is, can you be both Godly and manly? So we, we really talk about topics like that and I'm finding that those guys, they just, they, they eat this stuff up, Jerry. 

I mean, they just lean in because they, it's, it gives them a good outlet to ask questions to be, to be real. And I think the one thing I've learned from this online community thing and so many of these guys are talking about real life stuff and that's, that's, that's hitting them and I've asked a couple of them. I'm like, you know, you just, you just joined our community and you're talking about, you know, stuff in your bed, in your bedroom. Maybe you're talking about issues with, with drugs in the past or pornography or these, these, these taboo topics that we would never talk about in church because we may get judged, right? And, and we, we may run into these people at the grocery store, the restaurant after church. So we don't want to talk about the real life stuff. So we gotta be fake at church. But these guys aren't being fake at all. 

And, and I asked them like, why they're like, well, this seems like this platform is just easier to be real and that's, it just keeps coming back. It just, it's just easier to be real, to be vulnerable, to be transparent. And I'm just taking it as the Holy Spirit is just doing this thing and I'm just trying not to screw it up and just keep your eyes, you know, giving them those opportunities. And once one guy told me last week, he's like, I just like, because you have so many events I can pick and choose and it's cool to come to an event. I don't have to like, force that or make some awkward conversation because you kind of are organizing it and you know, and I just get to, to come and, and it makes the conversations a little more organic. So, I don't know, I think those areas are really important though and guys need to have those outlets to talk about it. And that's really what we're trying to foster, you know, at the line with us. And, and the amazing thing for me is like, how much do you spend on like barbecue or pizza to feed these guys when they show up? Right? No, it is nonexistent man. 

We are planning a live event. We got our first live event coming where guys want to fly in and we're gonna be doing that live event. But yeah, for the most, for the most part, like, we do have our line lunch. It's pretty cool. I put out there and it's like, ok, bring a sandwich or a protein shake or whatever. Right. And the only rules are like, you gotta be real. 

No fluff, no crap, no sales. Like, other than that, let's just talk about life. So we are all over the place. But yeah, there we don't have any of those expenses. And I love that because I was involved in men's ministry at my previous church when I lived in Corpus Christi. But I remember in that men's ministry that we struggled with getting men to show up to our events and time and again, men and women would say, and even our target audience, men would say, you know what if you want men to show up, you gotta feed us, you gotta have food there like barbecue or you know, barbecue and like, like nothing's manlier than, I mean, it's a men's gathering. So you gotta have, you know, fire and meat on top of that fire and maybe a token potato on there for everybody like for other guys to share. And that was like the way you had to get people to come and they were really there for the food and the fellowship. But you got men coming together to really open up and share and you know, come to terms with things going on in their lives and then here's the crazy thing they come back. Right. I know that's what keeps blowing me away, man. 

It's like, so every morning I go live to do that spiritual kickoff, like I mentioned. So the way the community works, it sends out a notification and we're not a huge community. We're less than 50 guys right now. And, but right now it averages 10 to 12 guys every morning. It's always, you know, there's some staple guys for sure that show up, but it's always a mix. And I think, you know, that's over, you know, a quarter of our community that just to, to dig into God's Word and to get a little kick in the pants because that's usually what I give them. But man, they're showing up to the Bible study, the line launches all the events and, and, and I just keep coming back to that transparency that, that realness, that rawness and we're not afraid to tackle the real issues. 

I caught it as you were describing it earlier. I mean, you put it up front. This is the expectation you show it be real. 

We're not, we're not being fake to each other. We're not selling each other on stuff. This isn't a business gathering. We want you here the authentic, you. And I think that opens the door up. I mean, I've, I've been in men's groups where we all show up thinking we got to wear a certain mask and somebody finally does open up and you're like, wow, this guy really needs our help and you think you've like, moved mountains for this guy, but he doesn't come back the next week and you're like, oh, man, what happened to him? And then he doesn't come back the next week and then he ghosts everybody. And it's like, oh, he was there like he had opened up, he was finally getting healing. 

He was having that aha moment and for whatever reason, he's run away now and that's always been heartbreaking. So to hear that people open up and come back is huge. That that is a big game changer, I believe. Yeah, I mean, the comeback part is, is key, right? Because if we're running them off, I mean, the retention rate has been really high. 

I've had meetings man where I'll go into it and, and I literally no agenda. Ok, guys, they like the lion lunch and then yesterday, one of our members popped in and he's like, hey, I don't, can I just take this over? I'm dealing with this and whatever. I'm not going to disclose what it was, but it was like, yeah, absolutely. This is what it's here for and he, he sent me a message afterwards. 

He's like, I'm, I'm starting to really see the value of what we're building here or what, what you guys are building here. And I was like this is what it's about, bro. Like you have to bring, you know, those, the other guys that are on that call. Do you think they felt for one second? Like, you know, they wasted their time? No, man, they each had an opportunity to pull in to be that iron, sharpening iron and to just speak ultimate truth to these guys. So I, to me that's where it's a, that's where it's, that, that's why they keep coming back. I mean, I got guys that are rescheduling their schedules to be at these meetings and stuff like that when you think about that like it's like, alright, something must be doing right if you know, because I mean, who gets excited for a Zoom meeting, right? But I mean, these guys get pumped up for it, man. 

It's the coolest thing. I mean, because beyond the rut, you know, one of the things I talk about all the time is, you know, finding fulfillment in your life by exploring the five F S. So in, in order of importance, faith, family, fitness, finances and future possibility. And here are men that are scheduling everything around a faith portion of their week, you know, hopefully they're doing the same thing for church on the weekend. But, you know, if they're plugging in outside of that one day, that's even better because now it's getting deeper for them, it's getting real, it's getting applicable and you're not just showing up on Sunday. To check a box and then go watch football that later that day or go eat at Cracker Barrel. Like you are. Seriously. My wife and I don't go to Cracker Barrel. 

I don't know why I brought that in anyway. Well, in Corpus, we went to Cracker Barrel like every other weekend. That's not true. We went to Cancun Mexican restaurant. They know they, I think we fully funded that restaurant for about a long time. 

I had to crack myself because my wife listens to the show and she's like, Jerry, that's not true. We never go to Cracker Barrel. But anyway, but wow, that was a squirrel moment. Can you believe that? It's all good, bro? But I tell, tell guys all the time, like, look, we are not the church. 

I mean, you, you need that local body. We are a good supplement for you guys, right? And I think that's what they keep coming back to and, and, and I tell him too, like, if you're expecting a church, a pastor on a Sunday for one hour to spiritually feed you and you'd be full, you know, you wouldn't go to and just eat that one hour on Sunday and expect to be full until you come back the next Sunday. Right? I mean, you'd be starving by Wednesday. So some guys would be starving by Sunday afternoon. Let's be real. But I mean, it's just, it's just the same thing you have to take it upon yourself to grow spiritually and touch on all the areas that you just talked about those five Fs. And we talk about the same type of things with the lion, but a little bit different health wealth itself, but it's the same core principles, right? 

Just trying to be better, you know, you know, Godly stewards of everything that God's given us. So, man, I think you're all over it. Thank you. And you too. I mean, that's why we have you on here now. 

You yourself like it's because you mentioned when you said that, you know, God put it on your heart to launch this and he kind of laughed because you're a father of daughters, which I think brings a level of tenderness that everybody needs when it comes to masculinity. But I'm also thinking and, and if I remember our original conversation correctly, it was, it's not like you have your life perfectly aligned and, and working perfectly since the day you were born, you, you found yourself stuck in some ruts as well. And are there any ruts that stand out the most that have really inspired you to say this is what equips me the most to help men in this way. I just think that the the the rut of so I've been working for my primary employer for this is my 20th year. So I mean, it's when you think about that, nobody works in a company for that, that long time anymore. You know, it's almost looked, it's looked down upon if you work at a company that long. But that's just how long I've been there. 

I've been there since college and I just felt really stuck there and a lot of things transitioned in that company where a lot of my joy and fulfillment were just not there anymore. And so I think that's why, you know, God just really starts speaking to me around that skill set of podcasting and, and connecting and networking because that's just been a gift I've always had, I just been able to, to really connect with others because I actually care about people. I don't really care about me as much as just serve, just my whole thing is just serve others. And that's why I really feel like he's done what he's done with the lion and setting me up as so the, the rut, I guess you could say I'm somewhat still in it because I want to do this as my full time, right? And, but things take time, you know, you, you can't just build a, a business overnight and jump particularly when you have as many eyeballs. Looking back at me when I walk out of this office every day, you know, so it's like, all right, let's be smart about it. But I just, I do know that when I'm doing stuff like this and, and trying to build stuff for the lion, I feel that peace and fulfillment that I have never gotten out of work before and I didn't really know existed. 

I mean, I, I, I've been happy in my career and I had some really high moments and I had some really low ones too, but the joy of actually doing, I feel like what God's calling me to do, even though it's not full time ministry and I'm not a pastor and I didn't go to seminary. I'm still trying to do my small part of building the Kingdom and, and there's just something about that that gets me fired up. It sounds like you're not defining yourself or you're definitely not defining yourself by your job or your profession or the titles that you hold or the income that you have like, you, you've grounded yourself as a follower of Jesus Christ. And yeah, how many of us run into somebody or we've been that guy where we have to find ourselves as the director of something or the vice president of something or the owner of this company and that, that's our identity. But the reality is like when we're gone, people aren't going to care that, you know, I founded Nike. I didn't find out I wasn't the guy behind Nike. But you know, if I were like, no, yeah, it's not gonna matter as much. But people are going to remember like, hey, you know, Chris made an impact on my life at a time. 

When I was at my lowest. And that saved my marriage, that saved my career, that saved my relationship with my kids. It saved my relationship with God. You know, I reconnected in a way. I never thought I would. That's the type of thing that moves mountains, I think. 

And, and you've probably seen that in the time that you've had the line within us running. I have, I mean, I've seen it directly within, within our community and then also just like outside of my community, the stuff that I'm doing in my secular job, I just have a different outlook. I try to any conversation I have. If you have it with me, we're going to talk about Jesus at some point. It's just gonna come up, you know, and, and I think just being more bold and open about that, I never would have done that in the past. There was a whole lot of fear and anxiety around that. But now it's like, you know, if they ask me a question, I don't know, it's OK, I'll figure it out. But if we're just having conversations, the Holy Spirit does the saving. 

I just have to be obedient and just lean into it. I mean, it's a funny thing. I had a meeting like a month ago and you have these people, I'm sure they reach out to you on linkedin or, or different platforms and they want to get on your calendar there pitching you something. I always shut those down because there's for one we're still building so we don't have a lot of money to do it, stuff like that. But, but this one, for some reason I took it and, and we met like two weeks after I got on his calendar and we get in the meeting, Jerry and he's like, why did we set this meeting? I'm like, bro, you set this meeting up, you tell me, why do we set this meeting up? 

Like, I have no idea. So we get to talk. And so I just started opening some conversations around faith and what we did at the lion and how we served Christian men and, and he, he, he grew up Catholic and he had never really had a gospel presented to him. So we talked for about 10 or 15 minutes and finally, he just got frustrated. He's like, well, what is the gospel? And I was like, glad you asked and I laid it out for him and it got real quiet and he was crying and I was like, what's going on, bro? 

He's like, I, I think I'm ready to accept Christ as my savior right now. I'm like on this zoom call. He's like, yep, right here on the zoom call. I'm like, all right. So I prayed, I prayed with him and he accepted Christ and, and he was like, I still don't know. 

He, he actually said, I still don't know why we had this meeting. I'm like, bro, you don't know why we had this meeting yet. I'm like, this is why this is the reason we had this meeting like, holy hell, like this is it, bro. Like this is it. So, and I've been following up with him for the last couple of months just checking in on him on linkedin D MS and he's still following the law. So it's just like that type of stuff happens pretty regular. And that now that was a little bit of a, like a, a, an an but I mean, it was still very, very cool and I just feel like leaning into those faith moments. 

I call them holy interruptions be let those holy interruptions happen and then, and then lean into it and you never know what the spirit is gonna do. Yeah. Yeah, it does always end with somebody, see Jesus as their savior either. It's, you know, you happen to have a dollar and you gave it to somebody in need and that was the thing that you not only fed them for the moment but like, inspired them to change you. You never know the impact you're gonna have on everybody. 

It's just that little thing that you did in the moment that oftentimes isn't like it's not planned, it's not manufactured. It's, yeah, like you said, it's an interruption. I, I've heard it called like the Divine appointment. Like it. Yeah, everything else makes no sense. Like why are we here at this moment this time? This place? Make sure I wasn't redundant, but that's not important. And you realize the person in front of you needs something that only you can provide. 

And, and other than that, the whole meeting makes no sense like you're not in the same circles. Yeah, there was no official request made about that specific need. But in the moment it came up, you met the need and you realize after the fact, wow, you know, this person maybe has gone through multiple people and not been able to find that help and you happen to be the guy found by accident seemingly or circumstantially. And it's just like it all clicks in a place. And I always, I love hearing about those types of moments because it gives me goosebumps. It just, oh, I walked out of my office shaking, bro. And my wife, my wife works from home too and I walked into her where she was working and she was like, are you OK? 

I'm like, well, I just met a guy from Puerto Rico that lives in Oregon and I just brought him to Jesus Christ. You tell me how that works and she was just like, what a meeting that that guy called for and didn't remember that. I love that. And it's like, I mean, because otherwise you would never meet this guy, you never jump on a zoom with him because you don't know the guy and he reached out to you and that, oh man, I love those moments. I really do. Like I, I sometimes share my, I won't tell the whole story here because my audience has heard it a number of times. But when I was in Iraq as a, you know, a medic, I was, you know, not behaving the best. 

I was very mean to people breaking into our compound, scaring women and Children. And you know, the dads with them basically. And there was this guy that he walked up, he was a soldier, walked up to me and just asked me, what am I doing? You know, what is up with their clothes? Why are you doing what you're doing and not confrontational? Just simply asking in a very calm voice. And I was like, where did this guy come from? 

He's from another platoon. They live in a completely different compound. And here he is in this moment asking me what am I doing? And I basically sent him off and the way he walked away though, it wasn't like mad or upset or this is BS, he just resigned and walked away and I didn't understand it at the time because I wasn't a believer. But what wound up happening was that, that group that I had in front of me, I let go. 

I was like, guys get out of here go. They, they didn't understand what I was saying they just understood. I calmed down and I told them to go away and shoot them away. And I, I thank the guy for asking me those questions, even though I rank I ranked him. And it just, it made no sense. It was just like these guys were in a different compound for weeks and all of a sudden this is the day that they come over to join with our team. Uh And then on top of that, as soon as he comes off the vehicle, the first thing he sees is Sergeant Dugan, 100 to 200 yards away acting very aggressively towards some people who, I mean, they broke into our compound. But the way I was interacting with the family was not the way you would want to see, you know, be seen doing it or not good for hearts and minds in a way and he just had it on his heart. 

I'm going to go ask him these questions and he did, he was being obedient not knowing. I mean, I guess in his eyes, it didn't work out like I, I didn't say you're right, I'm sorry. And, and then you guys should go. It was like I told him to go away. And then when he was out of sight, then I let these guys go, then I had the heart change. And then months later, my wife, we, we wind up back home and that was like the last time I was aggressive to anybody who was a civilian, by the way. 

And, yeah, I get home in, in July. My wife tells me that she made a deal with God. If I came home in one piece, she would get me to church. And it was like a year after that, I finally received Jesus as my savior. And it's like all because this one guy who was a private just happened to show up that day. 

They didn't even like move in. They just stayed for like an hour and left and it, it was like, it was like, man, that's insane. Like they were just in for that moment. He just happened to see that, ask me a question and that was the spark that opened my heart up to receive Jesus later on down the road. And you know, to this day, I still have no contact with the guy. 

I barely remember his name, but I remember that moment and it's not something that would have been manufactured in any other way because nobody else in that platoon of mine was calling me out. In fact, we were all doing it. And so it was somebody from the outside who happened to be there at that moment to say something. And it wasn't even somebody who was outranking me. It was the opposite. It was somebody lower level and oh man, yeah, it's a beautiful story and actually it reminds me of of recently, one of the topics we talked about within our community was evangelism and getting discouraged because you do go and if you do go out to evangelize and you share the gospel and so many people don't respond, right? 

And, and so many times guys in particular, we want to see that we're making an impact, like don't want it. What I'm doing matters. So I'm doing the work for the kingdom. So I should see that. I should reap it right now. Like no, bro. So just like that private with you, he planted a seed and that thing wasn't harvested till you said a year or so later. So he know he didn't, didn't see that, but he was just obedient in that moment because sometimes we're harvesting stuff and likely that that gentleman from Puerto Rico, that's in Oregon. I was likely harvesting something that had been planted a while back, right? 

I just, it took me a little bit just to get that out. But if you go in it with that mindset that I'm the one who's doing the saving, you know, you're missing it out because if the Holy Spirit does the work, just be obedient and, and, and just be blessed and whatever the outcome is. And like for you, it works out there. Yeah. And now we've shared a couple of examples where we recognized there was a moment where we needed to demonstrate our obedience to God's tugging on our heart. But how do we discern between, you know, if this is a calling from God to go do a thing versus I'm trying to manufacture a thing and look spiritual? Like, how do we know the difference between those two? 

I think a lot of it just comes down to you. You have to have really be plugged into the word, be spending time with him and listening. I think too many times we try to do the talking and we don't give God enough time to actually talk to us. You know, he's not gonna come yelling at us and usually it's that still small voice, right? So for me, it's, it's trying to get quiet, cut off the notifications somehow get in the woods. I'm really big on telling guys just get in nature like get outside. 

We were meant to be outside anyway. So this flu fluorescent lights and air conditioned offices and all this stuff is, is just not good for us. So get outside and, and listen to them and I mean, if it's a, that's one approach and then the second thing that I do, I'm so big on community is I think you gotta take it to fellow believers. You know, there's wisdom of Mount Counsel and, and that's biblical. So if you're working on something and you feel like God's taking, taking you in one direction, you know, test it, go out there and have conversations with others and, and and see because you never know that iron sharpening iron. It may really help you tune into what, what you feel like God is leading you to, you know, someone may ask you that question like that private asked you and it's gonna really open up your eyes to, to, to, to, to a purview that you weren't aware of. So I just think, you know, time with him first and foremost, number one, but then time with fellow believers and then very intentional about who you were letting speak into your life. 

If you take that man, that type of stuff and that approach, I just feel like the Holy Spirit is going to guide you in the right way. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I, I love that part about being among a community of believers too because you'll hear a pattern. You'll hear when somebody recognizes Yeah. 

What you're proposing is way off the mark of what Jesus is talking about or what it means to be a servant leader or what it means to be God honoring. Yeah, you're talking about something the way off base. You know, let's, let's unpack that a bit and let that person kind of explore. Hey. Oh oh Yeah. OK. I hear it. Now, we'll go to this other plan. 

Now if folks want to plug in more and you know, be a part of this community, listen to the podcast. Where's the best place for them to go. Yeah. I mean, for the podcast is any anywhere you listen, just the line within us is how we have it listed. But the easiest way to get connected with us just go to our main site, the line within dot U so that the lion within dot us and we have on that main page, several ways to connect with our community and we offer a 30 day free trial. So I, I, I want to give everybody a month, try it out because it's not for everybody. 

I, I totally get that. What we're built is not for, for every guy out there, but just check that out and, and you have nothing to lose, come to some events. See if it's something that serves you. See if the form serves you the different, we have a couple of courses in there that we created. One's around finances, one's around just leadership in general and just see, you know, you never know if you just take that one step of obedience, what that would do for you. And I just tell you, we have guys all over. 

We actually have, we have guys in Canada, we have guys in South Africa now. So we're, we're getting to be worldwide. It's been pretty cool to see how guys moving and just a different life of experiences that are there from early twenties to probably, I think our oldest is in his mid sixties. So there's a, there's a big, there's a lot of wisdom within the community and it's just been a wonderful blessing to see these guys lean into each other. So that's the easiest way to get connected with this and then just email me. 

It's Chris at the line within dot US. And I'm, I'm, I'm an open book, so I like emails too. Yeah. And the few weeks I've known you. That's absolutely true. Awesome. And, and before we go, any final words of wisdom before the dogs in the background take over our show, you can hear them. I'm so sorry. It's fine. I think Amazon just showed up, my cat is outside yowling at me. So the fact you can't hear it is is the power of this microphone actually. But anyway, yeah, I cannot hear that man at all. So that, that's incredible. 

I do have one piece of advice. If they would show the dogs would be quiet. I could actually for you. I know it's probably louder where you are. I love that. So the, the only advice this is what I tell all the guys that are part of our community or any time I get asked this question is just do whatever he tells you to do, be obedient to the Holy Spirit. And that's gonna look a lot different for you than it's gonna look for me. But if you're just obedient to the Holy Spirit, I just think there's something beautiful about that. And then at that point. 

It's not really you anymore. You're just being obedient and you never know how the Holy Spirit is gonna move. Awesome. And you've all heard stories from our conversation that support exactly that. So be sure to check out his website, the line within and uh, well, the line within dot US and his podcast, the line within us, Chris. It was great to have you on here. 

Thank you so much for being on here. Thanks for letting your dogs be on with us. I love them. I'm keeping that in here. Thank you, Jerry Man. You're awesome, bro. This has been a real treat now. 

I hope you got a lot of value out of this conversation with Chris Granger. I know I did. It was very uplifting for me and if you want more, go to the show notes at beyond the rut dot com slash 369 there, you'll find more information about how to find the line within us as well as related episodes about healthy Christian masculinity who that was a mouthful. Now, if you're also looking to get yourself unstuck from a rut, if you haven't gotten yourself a copy of Beyond The rut, create a life worth living in your faith, family and career. That's my book that I wrote this year. Then go get that. 

It's available on Amazon dot com, just type in Beyond the rut. It'll pop up. It's available as paperback as a Kindle and also as an audio book. But if you get either the print versions, I'll let you know you can get the audio version for free. Now, that's all I've got for this episode and I look forward to joining you again on the next one. But until next time, go live life beyond the rut. Take care.