00:00:00 - Jeremy Doran Active listening goes a long way. So paying attention, listening not just to what people say, but then finding out what they actually mean and then answering them goes a long way. When you're dealing with potentially sticky conversations.


00:00:17 - Jerry Dugan Do you feel like you're stuck in a rut in life or in a dead end job with no progression? I'm Jerry Dugan, and welcome to beyond the Rut, the podcast that offers you the motivation, inspiration, and practical tools to help you build a life worth living. My show is here to help you break free from your limitations and find a path to success. Join me as I share encouraging stories and actionable advice on how to get out of your rut in life and create a vision for your future. Life is just too short to live stuck in a rut. Here we go. Hey, rudder nation. This is Jerry, and in this episode, we're going to be joined by Jeremy Doran. He's a mechanical engineer by trade and Training, and he learned psychology so that he could become a better engineering leader. Today, he helps coach other engineers who've become leaders because the skill sets that made you successful in engineering may not be the skill sets that are going to make you successful as a leader of people. So we're going to cover some concepts like brainstorming, looking at perspectives other than your own, and then the power of delegation. It's basically like talking to me but hearing his voice, because this is something I'm passionate about when it comes to leadership. So if you're a leader and you feel stuck in a rut with your team in your leadership career, this is definitely an episode you don't want to miss. So sit back, relax, grab a notebook and a pen. Here we go. All right. Hey, Jeremy. Thanks for calling in from Rhode Island. How are you doing?


00:01:47 - Jeremy Doran I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.


00:01:49 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. I'm glad that we met. We connected through a platform called Podmatch, so just quick shout out to Alex, San Filippo and Alicia. Now, the cool thing about your background, if I understand correctly, the earlier part of your career is as a mechanical engineer.


00:02:04 - Jeremy Doran Yes. So I went to school for mechanical engineering and psychology, and that got me some interviews out of school just because people were curious of who would do that combination of things, because engineering wasn't hard enough. Right. And then I went from engineering into sales and then into coaching and leadership.


00:02:28 - Jerry Dugan Nice. Now, the psychology part, how would you say that paid off? Because from what I understand, engineers typically are very logical, very process driven, very mathematically driven, and the EQ side of things tends to be lower, or at least perceived to be lower. How did study and psychology help offset that, do you think?


00:02:47 - Jeremy Doran It's interesting. I actually do a lot of leadership coaching for engineers who have been promoted into management roles, and that is a very large issue. So, A, they tend to be much more data and logic based, and when they're dealing with people on either emotional topics or with people who are more emotional, they really need some coaching on how to deal with that. And they also tend to be very detail oriented, and not everyone wants all the details. So I have to coach them through how to interact with people with where the other person is?


00:03:23 - Jerry Dugan Yes. It's a big surprise that the higher you go and the leadership ranks, the less detailed you've got to be. I mean, you got to know the details. You got to understand that the details have to happen. But the communication style shifts more towards, like, vision and intent. And this is the direction I want to go. All of you help us get there. You're asking them to do all the details. I've worked in healthcare in terms of I was a medic in the army before, but more on the, you know, similar to what you do in the coaching and consulting side for leaders. And it's helping, like, nurses who transition from being a nurse to being a nurse leader, that it's a different set of skills. Similar to engineers going into engineering leadership. It's a different set of skills to be a leader. But you got noticed because of your technical skills. You know your job, you know how to build things, you know how to make things work. Same with nurses. They know how to save lives following protocol and standard operating procedures and certain rules you never bend or break. Then you get into leadership and you have to deal with things like emotions and relationships, and you'd love to just slap a standard operating procedure onto those things, but it doesn't quite work. It's kind of like the Matrix trilogy in a sense. Right? They need people for batteries. Sorry, guys. You had plenty of time to see the trilogy if you're thinking spoiler alert. But the reality was there needed to be some chaos, so leaders got to be able to navigate that. Jeremy, it sounds like you've got the fun pleasure of helping engineers navigate the messiness of people and relationships.


00:04:59 - Jeremy Doran Well, that transition is tough for everyone. Yes, not just engineers, but everyone got promoted to be a manager because they were good at the thing that they did. And then they're normally left to their own devices to figure out how to be a good manager, never mind a good leader. And the challenge is a little bit higher for engineers than it is for other people as well.


00:05:20 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, because if things break, we come looking for you. It's like, hey, this is broken. Who designed this thing? Now, you also wrote a book called The Little Kids, and it's about their perspective on how they see the world. Tell us a bit more about how that book came to be and what it's about and why people should pick up a copy.


00:05:40 - Jeremy Doran I'm the youngest of ten kids.


00:05:42 - Jerry Dugan Oh, wow.


00:05:43 - Jeremy Doran And that's probably the reason why I got into psychology, because it was such a fascinating group to observe and I would tell people stories about it. And every time I told them, they said, oh, you should write a book about that. And I kind of dismissed it. And then when I was doing coaching, I realized that talking about interpersonal communication, I was using examples of my story much more than I was using examples from the workplace. And I said, you know what? These are valuable lessons. I really should write this book. So my sister and I got together and we put it down on paper. And so there's 13 stories, and then at the end of each one, we come into the present day and say how it affects us now and what lessons we learn from it.


00:06:33 - Jerry Dugan Wow, I love that. And I love that you're able to actually draw the lessons out into somebody's career, too. It's like, yeah, this is a story that I experienced as a child. However, this is the lesson I picked up from it. Here's the connecting of the dot to your career, your business. We learn from stories. Right? I think that's the big, powerful piece of that.


00:06:57 - Jeremy Doran Yeah. Stories are what draw people in, and the lesson just kind of gets knuck on the end of it.


00:07:02 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And I've come across, like, some audiences where you always have that one guy that doesn't want the story and doesn't see the value in it. But for me, that value comes in with it gives context because people can relate to you, they can relate to the story. And then the concepts are kind of like the Trojan Horse in a way that I don't know why I used a virus analogy there, but it is how the message kind of sinks in. Like that concept now makes more sense because they have all these other contextual connection points with things that already make sense to me.


00:07:36 - Jeremy Doran I love that.


00:07:38 - Jerry Dugan Now, when you and I connected, one of the things that you'd mentioned was the idea of brainstorming. I guess more specifically, for me, brainstorming is, I've got a project, where do I even start? And so is that the kind of brainstorming you were talking about, or is there a different application that you had in mind?


00:07:57 - Jeremy Doran Well, I was inspired by the name of the podcast, beyond the Rut. And when people are trying to think of new things or make decisions, they very often get in the rut. And the value of brainstorming is having a bunch of people in a room, and you can't say no to any ideas because they're going to come up with something you never thought of. And that might not be the right idea, but it'll trigger the thought that the next thought might be the right idea. But not everybody has the ability to get seven people in a room and do brainstorming. So what I'll do with people is I will make them brainstorm all by themselves. So if they're thinking of a project or problem, for instance, if they're trying to figure out which product they should launch next, I have them look at it from six different people's perspectives. So I have them put a stake in the ground. I say, what if the only thing you cared about was profit per unit? What would that look like? And then they go through that and I make them come up with six. They can usually come up with three different perspectives pretty easily. If they need to get six, that is another way of forcing them to think outside of the box. So what if it's only profit per unit? What if it's total profit? What if it's only sales volume? What if the driving factor is what product is the most fun for you to talk about? It doesn't matter what the six things are. If you look at it from six different assumptions, you come up with a whole bunch of ideas you wouldn't if you were just stuck in the rut that you were originally in.


00:09:29 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, and besides the finance, like the bean counter, the accounting, the CFO perspective, what would you say are some other if we're talking about a business specifically and maybe a product or service, who are some other perspectives that we should keep in mind if we're going to go through that process?


00:09:46 - Jeremy Doran Well, ease of manufacture or delivery, depending on what it is that you're doing, I think the fun one is actually more important than people think because that's what keeps you inspired to be doing it. So if you're proud of making a certain product and another one, you kind of have to flinch every time you talk about it. That's a big factor. So ease of service, funds, talk about profit, sales. Again, if you have to come up with six, then you start thinking about things in very unique ways.


00:10:19 - Jerry Dugan Tell me more about the fun side of it, because I could think in my own head. I'm like, but if the fun part isn't as profitable as this other idea that I'm like, how do I work through my own mindset to recognize that's the fun one, that's the one I'd really love, and then make that decision to go there?


00:10:39 - Jeremy Doran Well, once again, having six perspectives, it's not that any one of the perspectives is going to get you to the right answer. It just triggers extra thought. So if you go through and you figure out which one's the most fun for you or the one that you're the most proud that you're going to be doing, and then you look at it five other ways and you see what's the most efficient or what's the most profitable, then sometimes you're going to come up with a brand new solution that wasn't in any one of those perspectives. But the collaboration of all those thoughts gets you to the new thing that can be fun and profitable and make you proud and makes the world a better place. Nice.


00:11:21 - Jerry Dugan And that's the power of different perspectives too. In this case, you're doing it by yourself and you're putting yourself in other people's shoes, in a sense, is what I'm gathering. You're trying to see it from the CFO perspective, the manufacturing perspective, the maybe the marketing perspective, the the customer's perspective, and and your own, like, why is this better for you as opposed to what you were doing already? I love that. What's kind of at stake if we don't want to consider other perspectives?


00:11:53 - Jeremy Doran You go down one lane and you're not going to come up with the best solution. So the value of brainstorming, again, is it triggers things that you never would have thought of on your own. And usually it turns basically a negotiation into a collaboration. If you are just kind of on one track, then you're picking one or the other. And that's what a negotiation is, basically. You don't get the best solution. You get the thing that's palatable to everyone. When you collaborate, you come up with a whole new thing. That is usually a much better solution in multiple different ways.


00:12:30 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, I can see people getting excited about that new thing. And it's not to be big either, I don't think. It's just that new twist or that new approach to a problem that's been around for a long time, whatever that problem may be. It's that one little shift. It's like, oh, I see it now. I get it. And I love that.


00:12:49 - Jeremy Doran Yeah, it's normally just that little tweak that really sets things off.


00:12:53 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. How much does personality types tie into that? As far as brainstorming goes and getting.


00:13:00 - Jeremy Doran A diversity of thought, I'm not exactly sure. So I'll pick how I want to answer it. How's that?


00:13:09 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, go for it. That was my aim.


00:13:13 - Jeremy Doran One thing that can happen is some people like to talk and they like to share their ideas and they are competitive and they want to push for their ideas. And when you get that combination of a person in a room with someone who might be shy, might be quiet, might not be competitive, it's hard to get that person's ideas. So when you're in a group like that, you really need to pay attention and make sure that everyone is able to contribute equally. So that normally requires structure set up ahead of time, because if you just all of a sudden start cutting someone off and asking someone else their opinion, it doesn't go well. But if you set up the structure ahead of time, everyone knows that everyone's going to contribute, then that normally works out a lot better.


00:14:00 - Jerry Dugan Nice. That sounds like a very engineering approach too, that methodical. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Everybody's had a turn. You will have a turn. Be prepared. I love that.


00:14:10 - Jeremy Doran Yeah.


00:14:11 - Jerry Dugan My approach tends to be more of like I hate to call it this, but it is what I call it, like controlled chaos. So I let the person who is more outspoken and externally thinking, I give them kind of free rein for a while and then I start to recognize, all right, who has not spoken during this time. And so the group may not know that I've got time selected in the agenda, but I know it's there. And that's to now give the floor to a specific person. So if you, Jeremy, are quiet at the table and my doppelganger Jerry, well, I guess that's my name. But anyway, Steve there we go. We'll say somebody thought my name was Steve at one point. I'm rolling with that. But Steve is dominating the conversation as a facilitator. It's up to me as the leader of the meeting to say, hey, Steve, thanks so much for all those ideas. I'd like to hear from Jeremy now. Jeremy, what is your thought on this? And then just get quiet. And if Steve wants to chime in again, hey, I love that. I love your enthusiasm. I really want to hear from Jeremy. It's just like giving that floor to Jeremy and inviting Jeremy into the conversation. I might be applying disc here. I'm thinking somebody who's an S, a steadiness is going to defer to the group and needs to be invited into the conversation. Just hearing your response made me think about that. I'm like, yeah, there are people who just need to be invited and some folks need to have that structure because I get that complaint like, oh, it's just like total chaos until you rein it in, Jerry. It's like, no, the plan was internal. But I guess if you communicate the plan ahead of time, for those who are more detailed and structured, they're more at ease. It's what it sounds like.


00:15:52 - Jeremy Doran Yeah, it's funny. We just come at it from different angles because I like the structure, which then allows me to break from the structure and allow some chaos in. You start with the chaos and then you put the structure on top of that.


00:16:05 - Jerry Dugan So we leave room for both. There's the structure and then there's the chaos. So you out there leading your own meetings. That is something to keep in mind. Now, how often does personality types also impact communication style?


00:16:19 - Jeremy Doran Often. I have so many great examples from growing up, and as I said, I use them when I'm doing coaching. We do a personality assessment and there's ten different dimensions that we measure people on. And one is kind of how black and white, you see the world. Some people, things are right wrong, black, white, and then other people. On the other end of the spectrum, everything kind of depends and there's different reasons and different groups of people who tend to be one way or the other. But, oh, boy those conversations can be painful to watch. The people who are black and white think that the people on the other end of the spectrum are wishywashy and have no moral compass. Maybe. And the people who are more everything depends it's situational think that the black and white people are very judgmental and the conversations between the two can really be problematic. But what's more interesting I find is that two different people who are both the black and white type, that conversation can be even worse.


00:17:28 - Jerry Dugan Really.


00:17:28 - Jeremy Doran I've got two brothers. Yeah, I've got two brothers and they are both black and white people. They don't have opinions on anything. They know everything they know as a fact. Problem is that the facts they know are completely opposite. So when they're having discussions it can be a challenge.


00:17:47 - Jerry Dugan Wow, do they ever seem to I guess they would have a harder time to make those shifts and adjustments and find compromises or find like for each of them it's that duality thinking, it's either this or this and it sounds like the third option or fourth option escapes them because of that limitation. I think I just gave which end of the spectrum I'm on too.


00:18:16 - Jeremy Doran Everyone in my family is also really competitive and if you're in a team meeting and you've got some really competitive people in the room, the way you structure that meeting or the way you present ideas is different than the way you'd present it to people who more want the whole team to go. Well if you've got a really competitive person, sometimes if you're not careful you can say your idea and if they have a different idea then all of a sudden they're viewing that as a competition and you're never going to bring them around at that point because now they're just digging in their heels. And if you can negotiate the conversation in a way that you come up with the idea together, it's much more likely to go forward in an orderly and team way.


00:19:09 - Jerry Dugan Right? I've run into that in my own career as well, where somebody who is competitive, maybe also black and white in how they see the world. It becomes my idea versus their idea and it's like my idea could probably support your idea or some again, third option. There's always a third option in my opinion. There could be something that's just much more palatable for everybody and useful to everybody. And I guess for me on a professional level I always struggle with how do I approach that person so that they feel comfortable enough that it's not a competition, that they have skin in the game and that what we really need for the greater good is to come together and create something. But I think that you kind of hit it at it where if you can structure the conversation in a way that they're also a part of creating that new idea, that's how you get there. What are some of the things that you could say to help that person come along, I think is kind of what I'm fishing for. Scripting.


00:20:13 - Jeremy Doran Once the competition is in place, you almost just have to remind them and just step back for a minute. And if it's in a group meeting, you might need to do it separately. You may need to step out of the room because they have to save face in front of everyone because they want to have won that. But if you just step out and say, hey, here's our goal is to blah, blah, blah, and just start rephrasing things as our goal and what we want to accomplish and remind them it's not a competition. It's trying to get the best solution.


00:20:50 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. So it'd be a great time to call for a break while everybody's out of the room, or you go into a separate room with that person and have that conversation. And hopefully during the break, it was enough time for them to come around and say, okay, yeah, we got this. We got this. I'm certified in disc, so my brain just goes to that first because it's what I cut my teeth on. One of the quadrants, though. They are just like that. They are driven by achievement. They're driven by getting things done, by winning. And so one of the things they fear is looking weak, and the other thing they fear is not getting things done on time. For them, it's the same thing in terms of you got to give them a chance to get on board, to shift gears from what they were thinking and do it in a way that they can safe face, not look weak. Calling for a break, having that personal conversation, I think, goes a long way for doing that.


00:21:51 - Jeremy Doran And sometimes I will just concede. I'll say, you've got a great idea. Let's roll with that. And then it's disarmed them a bit where then we can start talking about how to tweak it and make it even better.


00:22:04 - Jerry Dugan Nice.


00:22:05 - Jeremy Doran So you're letting them have the win and then also getting to achieve what might be a slightly better solution.


00:22:13 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, you start adding those parameters, like, these are the things we have to have to deliver on. That kind of thing.


00:22:19 - Jeremy Doran Yeah.


00:22:19 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. It's interesting because we're in the same field, so I'm like, oh, I know how this works. I know how this works. I'm like, okay, but I got to ask the questions as if I have no clue or how. I mean, my approach would be different, and my approach would be different. But I love that we're talking about this because for those of you listening in on this conversation, you probably are stuck on a project at work, or you're stuck on a career decision, or maybe you want to start a business, whatever it is. The two things we've talked about so far brainstorming. Typically in a brainstorming session. You're involving different people, different personality types, and then how do you have a brainstorming session if it's just you and you want to put yourself in the shoes of other people, people who are not like you because the people are like you are probably going to say the same thing. Right? And then we started talking about the impact of different communication styles and if you're not aware of it, how you can just keep butting heads and not get anywhere. But the moment you realize somebody's communication style is different than yours, somebody's seeing things as black and white, where you might see it as a broader spectrum of possibilities, how do you bridge that gap? How do you extend an olive branch? How do you let the other person safe face all good things? I guess from there, pinnacle performance. You've been doing that for a while, helping engineering leaders make that transition from being an engineer to being a leader. How do you kind of guide them through their 1st 100 days? Like what the the mindset shifts and all that stuff?


00:23:55 - Jeremy Doran I'm not always getting them right as they start.


00:23:58 - Jerry Dugan Yes.


00:23:58 - Jeremy Doran So it's not always the first 100 days. We do spaced coaching, so we'll do it ideally once a week over the course of nine to twelve weeks, that they can work on what they've learned, implement it, and then refine it, and then start learning new things. But I always start with time management. And a big part of time management is prioritizing what the most important things you can get done are. And that is a huge transition. When you're used to the most important thing you can do is to achieve a task. Moving that to the most important thing you can do is help someone on your team achieve their task. It's a really difficult mindset for people to change.


00:24:43 - Jerry Dugan I'm glad you brought that up because I see that topic coming up a lot. And in my career, and also as I started my own business, people ask about time management. I hear people I look up to talk about time management. I'm like, Is that really a big need? And it's like hearing you talk about it, it is. My friend Tom Schwab, he's always saying, what is normal for you could be new to somebody else. And so you just kind of point out something I take for granted. My wife always asks, how do you get things done? I'm like, oh, no, I just do. Maybe it's the ADHD, I don't know. But the prioritization, it's like, okay, I think because I think in terms of vision and no matter what, this is the end goal. The plan might change on the way, we might get delays, we might get advantages and speed up things, but I know what the end result or the outcome ultimately should be. And I guess as a leader, my role is empowering others. It's delegating. Not just so I can go on vacation. That's always good. But delegating is just such a great way to develop your team. And it was taught to me at a young age. Young age. I was in my 20s. In the military, they impress upon leaders that you need your team to know what you do and what the plan is, and they need to be equipped to go carry on without you. And you're like, Why do they need to go and be able to carry on without me? I'm the leader. And it's that dark realization that the army goes to war, you might be the first one to go. I was like, oh, that sucks. And they're like, yeah. And we're going to judge your leadership based on what your team does after you're dead. And we're like, oh, that really sucks. So the memory of me could be immortalized in a Steven Ambrose book. Well, he was already gone by then, but if I'm inept, that gets recorded. They're like, yes, we can't have that. And so you start delegating to make sure your team like you start quizzing people. You're like, all right, Morales, if I die, what needs to get done today? What's the mission? And he's got to tell me everything. Boom, boom. All right, Smitty, if this happens, let's say Morales goes, you're the next in line. What is the thing we're doing? And all of a sudden, they got to be able to do it. And I don't know if that helps you or not. I love the power of delegation. I think it's because I saw something on your website about when's the last time you as a leader were able to take a vacation.


00:27:12 - Jeremy Doran And I think, right.


00:27:13 - Jerry Dugan Delegation is so huge. Yeah, go ahead.


00:27:18 - Jeremy Doran Every leader or manager, their goal should be to make themselves obsolete. And if you can do that, the way to get there is through delegation, because delegation saves your time, but it's also the way that you train others and get them learning. The best thing that I started doing when I was new to being a manager, I was swamped. And people kept coming to me with questions, and I kept answering them. And then I realized, one day, I can't survive this. So I started asking, what would you do if I wasn't here? They didn't like that. And they say, well, I'll call you. No, you can't call me. I'm not here. So eventually it got to where they would come to me, and they would always have at least a suggestion of what they would do. And then it got to the point where they would just come to me and say, here's what happened. Here's what I did. Here's how it went. Great. So it's not nearly as dramatic as being in the military and you're dead. How's your team doing? Right, but it was the way that I got there different paths, but you got to the same.


00:28:22 - Jerry Dugan Place. And I love the end result of that because how do people feel when they know that you trust them to make a decision?


00:28:31 - Jeremy Doran Dared. So in the beginning, they're scared, and that's why I would do it slowly in the beginning. I ask them what they would do. They come up with an idea. If it's anywhere close to what I would do, I'd say, Great, run with it, and report back to me by the end of the day on how it went, though, you're giving them a little bit of leash, and then as it starts working more and more often, the leash gets longer and longer.


00:28:56 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And eventually there's no leash at all. It's just like, hey, report back to me what's going on? Yeah. And I love that. I think for leaders, though, there tends to be that problem of letting go. What do you think holds us back from delegating in the first place?


00:29:14 - Jeremy Doran It's funny because I bring up delegation and there's always someone in the room who says, I tried that once, it doesn't work. I'll never do it again. I'll ask them how the process was and then quickly find out that it was the process, not actual delegating. But they all believe that people who really struggle with it, no one can do this thing as well as I can, or no one will care about it as much as I can. Or the third big one, is it's faster if I just do it myself? And for that one, I always say, maybe this first time. But is this something that you do over and over? You may be investing time now. It's going to end up saving you a lot of time down the road, and they may not be able to do it as well as you can now, but whoever taught you was able to do it better than you were at that point, and now you're the expert on it, so you got to pass that forward.


00:30:05 - Jerry Dugan Yes, and I love that because whether it's your career or whether it's your life, your legacy is really what you did to impact others and how you helped other people grow and feel and all those things. It always touches my heart when an employee that worked with me before comes out of the blue and just says, hey, Jerry, I want to let you know this is where I am in my career right now. And there's something that I apply every single day that you taught me or you trusted me with, and I just want to thank you for having that trust. When I was brand new in my career or halfway through and striving to move up, you gave me a chance. And I'm thinking, I just didn't want to read seven books and design a coaching model. And you took that on and yes, you've got that to your name now. Or, I wanted to go to Disney World for a week and a half. And the only way I could do that was knowing that my team could do what needed to be done for a week and a half without having to call me during my time off. So then you start thinking ahead, like, all right, I want to go on another Disney trip, maybe two weeks this time. What does my team need to know now so that they're ready by then? And it snowballs from there. And it's funny, the more time I take off, the more rested I am when I come back, the more ideas I have. And the team comes back, and they're just like they're excited not just to have me back, but the things they accomplished while I was gone. And to celebrate those wins with them is always a great thing for me. As we're wrapping up in our gosh, that time flew by. Dude, I don't know. I just called you dude. Sorry, Jeremy.


00:31:42 - Jeremy Doran Yeah, I did it's.


00:31:44 - Jerry Dugan Eric gave away. I'm from California originally. So you have Pinnacleperformance.com as your website. I love your tagline that you've been helping organizations and leaders reach Pinnacle performance since 1998. So, folks, you need to check out his website, Pinnacleperformance.com. Is there anything I missed as far as how people can reach out to you, what they should reach out to you for? Like, how can you help leaders out there and why should they reach out to you?


00:32:14 - Jeremy Doran Well, that website is a good one if you want to learn more about the book. It's the Little Kids US, and we're putting some blogs and things on there just to give extra perspective. You can reach out to me on either one. I'd be happy to talk.


00:32:29 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. And before we go, any final words of wisdom for those engineers becoming leaders, or even those nurses since I brought them up? Anybody transitioning into a leadership role? Any final words of wisdom?


00:32:41 - Jeremy Doran It's nothing new, but active listening goes a long way. So paying attention, listening not just to what people say, but then finding out what they actually mean and then answering them goes a long way when you're dealing with potentially sticky conversations.


00:33:00 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. Jeremy, it was great to have you on here to have a colleague, and thanks for letting me not only have you share your knowledge with my audience, but also let me pick your brain. So that's kind of a little bit of what happened here as well. So. Thank you, Jeremy.


00:33:15 - Jeremy Doran It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me, man.


00:33:17 - Jerry Dugan Rudder nation. I hope you got a lot of nuggets of knowledge from Jeremy in that conversation, because we covered a lot of ground brainstorming to get different perspectives of the people on your team. If you're brainstorming by yourself, putting yourself in the shoes of different people so that you're thinking from different perspectives as well, great thing to apply when you're thinking of solutions to a problem. And then we also talked about different personality types. I kind of dabbled a little bit with Disk. There are different assessments out there, different models out there. I like Disk because it's something I can use. Quick and easy, down and dirty in the moment. And then don't overlook the power of delegation. And if you have any sort of leeriness to delegating responsibilities to others, that's something for you to explore, because you're missing out if you think you've got to do it all yourself. One, you're putting too much stuff on your plate, making yourself a martyr that nobody cares about. It's probably leading to turnover because people don't feel engaged, they don't feel like they're having growth opportunities. And I could talk about this for a lot. So delegate. Learn how to do it. Take it from myself or Jeremy, you will be a better leader for learning how to delegate with clarity. That's all I've got for this episode. If you want to learn more, go to the show. Notes@beyondtheut.com three, six, four. There I'll link back to Jeremy's resources related episodes beyond the Rut that talk about leadership, and I'll even link to my company BtR Impact, LLC, if you want to learn more about how to stake out your leadership tent. Well, I'm glad you joined me this week, and I look forward to joining you again on the next episode. But until then, go live life beyond The Rut. Take care.