00:00:00 - Kurian Tharakan The whole process to getting him back on track was to rediscover his soul, rediscover the heartfelt reasons for why he started the company, then translate that into big ideas that can actually transform their customers lives. That's how we turn that business around.


00:00:16 - Jerry Dugan Hey, rudder nation. Welcome to another episode of beyond the Rut, the podcast that shares encouraging stories and practical tools to help pull you out of your rut into a life worth living. I'm your host, Jerry Dugan, and we're going to be joined by 27 year veteran in the sales and marketing industry, Kurian Tharakan. Now he's out of Alberta, Canada, and he's going to share with us the seven essential stories we tell ourselves. Because really, how we accomplish and get things done in our lives really does come down to what are the stories we tell ourselves when we hit a setback, when we find success. What we have going on inside our heads is going to help determine if we keep growing, if we sustain, or if we wither away. So sit back, relax, grab a notebook and a pen, maybe a cold beverage. And here we go. All right. Hey, Carrie, and thanks for joining me on this call. How are you doing today?


00:01:07 - Kurian Tharakan Good, Jerry. Thanks for having me on your show.


00:01:09 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. And what part of Canada are you calling in from?


00:01:12 - Kurian Tharakan We're up in the snowy Alberta region. I'm in Edmonton, Alberta, and we're recording this in December, right. And it got to -17 fahrenheit here the other day. So it was a little cold, a little preachers on the streets. But yeah, we're surviving.


00:01:28 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. And so for my listeners here, if you're listening to this in April 2023 or beyond and you're thinking, man, it's so hot, hopefully this just let you realize, oh, it's cooler, we just planted that. Seed some cool thoughts in your head, Jerry's.


00:01:43 - Kurian Tharakan Got a busy podcast, let me tell you, it's tough to get on the show.


00:01:46 - Jerry Dugan I keep saying yes to great people. I actually was talking about this with my wife last night. I have enough recordings and booked guests to take me through the middle of 2023.


00:01:59 - Kurian Tharakan Wow.


00:02:00 - Jerry Dugan I'd really like to either. I don't know, I got to start saying no to folks, but I don't want to because I grow with each of these conversations. So there's a little bit of a selfish drive to keep doing these. And so I asked her, what do you think about me going to like twice a week or even daily? And she's like, you mean I'd have to hear about this every single day?


00:02:18 - Kurian Tharakan And I'm like, lunch, breakfast, and dinner.


00:02:21 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And I was like, what's different than what's happening to you right now? So that's something I'm kicking around is the idea of going either twice a week or even daily. But I got to kick around the idea some more and just see if that's sustainable for me. But hey, you listening in? Let me know. Email me info at beyond the Rut.com or Tweet, however you're connected to me and just say yes. Go daily or go twice a week, or no, weekly is good, dude. I got a lot of other shows I listen to. Either way, I'm glad we're on here. We met through Podmatch, and it's something I really loved about your background. You do a lot of training and development of salespeople and marketers, and you've got a long career in marketing. But it's the book that you just published that talks about the seven stories that charismatic leaders tell, and I guess just diving right in. What is a charismatic leader?


00:03:16 - Kurian Tharakan What do we think of a charisma is one of those elusive definitions. Everybody thinks they know what charisma is, but until you actually read it in a Merriam Webster dictionary and such right. Most people think they know what it is, but what it actually is may be a bit different here's. The way I define charisma is the ability to make your audience come alive. So it's not about, hey, look how great I am. It's about the audience. It's about your customer as hero. It is about the people that are listening to you and to get them to come alive, believe in themselves, believe in the mission, and then apply all their energies to go forward. And when you are in their presence, you come into this energetic being. And when you leave their presence, they want to return to that energetic state of being, and they are looking for ways to do that.


00:04:11 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, that's what charisma is. I was just thinking about some key leaders in my life or just in the world, and I was just thinking about their message that it's not me. Me. There are popular leaders out there that is all they're about. But the ones that really drive movements and help people succeed, it's really the inspiration they're bringing this movement, in a sense, and it's like, yeah, I want to be a part of that. Let's go. And then that's how they get their following. I could see that. Yeah. Now, story well, I guess where do I want to go with this? Oh, man. My mind went in five directions at the same time, Karen. But stories, I think you'd mentioned this to me before we even started recording that. There's, like, one story that leaders tend to tell really well, and it's that big idea.


00:05:06 - Kurian Tharakan So there's seven key stories. I've been in the sales and marketing business. I've run sales teams, I've run marketing teams, I've run integrated sales and marketing teams. And at the very beginning this is 35 years ago, 30 years ago, I would have been very focused on tactics, selling tactics, marketing tactics and such. And what I realized is those tactics don't really work very well until you understand how you can transform people's lives. Right? Otherwise, you're just coercing them. There's various types of shenanigans going on, right? And we don't want to be that bad used car lot type of scenario. So at the end of it, once the customer has that product or that service in hand, do they feel they received something that they were promised and what they were promised was in the story? So what I tell our new clients these days is that the very first thing that anybody buys from you, the absolute very first thing is the Big Idea. And the Big Idea is a transformation story. How they can get that customer from where they are today to where they want to be from. That Big idea is a series of key messages. It might be things like function, process, relationship. There's a variety of key messages that help people understand how to implement the Big Idea in their life. And then finally they buy into the following thing a strategic narrative which is just a story about how the Big Idea will impact their lives and how to bring it in so that they can take full advantage of where they are going to get to with the tools. The tools are simply your products and services which are the fulfillment, which will help fulfill the promise in your story. That's all it is. So your products and services are simply the tools to fulfill the promise in your story. Now, if you notice what I've said, here the Big idea, the key messages and the strategic narrative. No one pays for that. But they got to buy it in their head, they got to pay attention to it. They only buy the products and services, but unless they buy the Big Idea key message and the strategic narrative, they won't buy anything.


00:07:13 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, and that applies even like somebody's dating life. I was just thinking back in the days when I was trying to convince my wife to go from girlfriend to wife or even acquaintance to girlfriend, she had to be on board with who is Jerry Dugan? What is he about? Where is he going with his life? What kind of person is he going to be on the highs and on the lows? And so what is the Big idea for me as a person? And so knowing who I am on the inside is very important for a dating life to become a married life. And 21 years later, she still hasn't fired me yet.


00:07:47 - Kurian Tharakan Shocking. That's shocking.


00:07:50 - Jerry Dugan But even from a parenting perspective, like if you want your kids to listen to you and follow your lead, they got to buy into who you are as a person. I mean, you could rule with an iron fist, but the first chance they get, they're going to rebel, they're going to take off, they're going to do their own thing anyway. But if they buy in, they'll surprise you, they'll come in.


00:08:09 - Kurian Tharakan The thing is marketing. People think marketing is all about the products and servicing them. Marketing is the core aspect of marketing is communication with a persuasive angle. And the meaning of communication is response. If you're not getting the response you had intended, you're not communicating very well. So marketing is just a series of tool sets. Tool sets, strategies, tactics that help you communicate better to achieve, to get the response you want, the result you want, and that other individual has to give you that result. They have to voluntarily give you the hearts, minds and souls in the direction you're going. Otherwise it never sticks. Otherwise you've just coerced them. Otherwise you've just tricked them into doing something. And that never goes well for anybody in the long run.


00:08:57 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. The big idea, it makes sense no matter what facet of life it is. And somebody's probably thinking, I'm not a salesperson.


00:09:05 - Kurian Tharakan It's like we're always yes, you are.


00:09:07 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, exactly. Everybody is just asking people to go out together for a hike on a Saturday. That's selling. How do you convince a group of people who probably want to sleep in to get up early, to put on some athletic shoes, get some water in a backpack, and meet up somewhere out in the country to go for a hike?


00:09:26 - Kurian Tharakan Exactly. Your whole life is a series of requests. It's a series of requests to get other people to provide resources, provide energy, to provide themselves, to achieve some kind of common result. Right. That's what it's about. And so you are in the persuasion business whether you want to be or not.


00:09:50 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And you keep making that distinction of persuading and inspiring versus coercing somebody or manipulating somebody and then that's a very important distinction to make and I'm glad you're bringing that up repeatedly.


00:10:01 - Kurian Tharakan It's got to be something that they throw themselves into voluntarily because they want to be a part of it, otherwise it doesn't stick very well.


00:10:10 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And I think as far as being a charismatic leader pulling this off, they've got the energy, they've got the personality, but really it's that big idea and you've mentioned that already. What is it that they allow or where am I going with this? It's internally for that leader. They've got to be okay with people saying, no, this isn't for me. So what do they typically tell themselves so that they're still pitching the big idea and they're okay if people are on board or not.


00:10:39 - Kurian Tharakan Yeah. In fact, you want people saying no to you. Brands by definition, a brand is simply a promise of an outcome. Brand is a central idea in marketing. It's the promise of an outcome, the tangible, concrete promise of an outcome. And when you hear brand promise, that's what they're talking about. Brands, by definition, have to attract your perfect customer, but that implies that you repel your imperfect customer. By definition, brands are in the business of attracting and repelling at the same time. So at the very beginning of a movement, for example, at the very beginning of any kind of a process where you are trying to get people to believe in you. You want true believers. You want people that absolutely are hardcore true believers. And that's that first ring around that leader, your first group of disciples, and then they propagate the message for you to that second tier and that third tier. And in fact, IBM, Procter and Gamble does not have the money to communicate one by one to millions upon millions upon millions of people. They have to create something that is so persuasive on his face that the true believers, the disciples, transmit that message for them. Right? And so they are as much in the storytelling telling business of that brand. So that then that disciple and the true believer, and then even the second tier says, you really should take a look at this new IBM computer. You should take a look at this new type of Tide I bought procter and Gamble Tide. It's amazing. And that's how you communicate the message beyond the paid channels that you might have to engage.


00:12:22 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, Walt Disney World was really big on any given year. I think it was like 70% of the people walking through that gate was a returning guest. And even in the experience when I first took my family in 2008, the guests were getting in on the idea of providing magical moments for other guests. They saw our first time visit buttons on the family, and we're watching whatever show it was, and somebody like, threw like plastic jewels and gems up in the air. And our kids are like and it was just timed with what was on screen, and our kids are like, gems flew out of the walls and hit us. And they thought that was really happening. It was nothing other than a guest sitting behind them who just wanted to.


00:13:05 - Kurian Tharakan Add this one little wild stuff.


00:13:07 - Jerry Dugan Yes. And it's just a joy on their face.


00:13:09 - Kurian Tharakan And that guest, if they did that, that's a disciple.


00:13:12 - Jerry Dugan Yes.


00:13:13 - Kurian Tharakan They are so bought into the religion of Disney, and religion is not worshipping a god at its core as much as it is about the common set of values that the adherence of that religion espouse.


00:13:30 - Jerry Dugan Yeah, I'm just on board with the whole idea of brand and community and having champions just go out. They're just fully on board because they're the ones who become the superfans. They're the ones who are telling other people about. I mean, that's how your reputation precedes you, is hopefully champions telling people about you. You can also have a reputation precede you in the negative sense that you have the anti champion. I don't know if that's a word or not, but the folks that are like, hey, watch out for Jerry. I don't know, he'll steal your cheese and you're not looking.


00:14:06 - Kurian Tharakan If you think about it the following way, great leaders that have tenure, that have longevity, they need one thing first. They need disciples. Otherwise you need that first follower. And that first follower is usually the first disciple as well. And then it takes off from there. And so that can be as much about a new startup company or as much about a movement, the whole green movement that took place in the right. You needed a core group of hardcore believers in order to carry that message. That's the only way it works.


00:14:46 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And how do people find that one and recognize that that's the one first champion for them.


00:14:53 - Kurian Tharakan A lot of ways is about standing on the street corner by your message. Now, street corners are different things for different people, right? The old days it may have been a street corner, right? You have the old fashioned revival tent, that kind of thing. Today. It might be YouTube. And so there's a digital street corner on YouTube and people discover your YouTube messages on a series of podcasts or whatever have you, right? And then they are attracted to your message and then they are attracted to your religion. And once again, religion is not about God necessarily because there's been thousands of religions throughout history. Thousands of religions, right? And we're down to three or four core big religions now. Three of them are Abrahamic. So you have Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right? Now, if you take a look at it, Christianity has been around for, let's say 2100 years now. Not 2000, 102,000 years approximately. What am I saying? Islam has been around since the 600s, okay? And Judaism has perhaps been around for 5000 years, but there are only 14 million Jews in the world today. 14 million. There are 2.1 billion Christians and about 1.8 billion Muslims. Now how did and they're all formed a part of this Abrahamic group or ideology? Father Abraham. Now, one of the premises of how Christianity and Islam took off like that, borrowing on the tenets of Judaism, is because they had better stories and they had a core aspect of their religion to proselytize, tell other people's stories, bring them into the tent. And so that's how they were going out and able to take off with so much fervor in under 2000 years. And if you take a look at other things, if we take a look at other things like all these other religions, and there's Zoroastrianism has been around for thousands of years, right? You don't hear it's running to a lot of Zoroastrians these days because they don't have the same kind of story complex that perhaps Christianity and Islam do today. And you will also find that the stories have to change over time. The stories that were changing, that were what is it told in the early days of the are really a lot different than what they are told today. And so as society moves along, the stories have to adapt. The core stories are still there, but a lot of how to follow the values of the religion have had to change as a result.


00:17:32 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. I mean, you see, like, modern day examples of, like, Mother Teresa with Christianity. A big thing in Christianity is the personal testimony. How does my story fit into this narrative of Jesus Christ? It makes sense. It's like this is a set of values and approach and belief. And here is a story of somebody who's been transformed by and you said that at the very beginning, that big idea of transformation. And we're applying this to you, the individual listening in. How do you tell a story that communicates your big idea, your why, to those listening around you and then sifting through who's on board with you, who says, no, that ain't me, and being okay with both, but also being very okay with the ones that say, no, that ain't me.


00:18:22 - Kurian Tharakan Once again, you want that. You want people telling you as many no's as possible at the very beginning because it helps you refine your message.


00:18:31 - Jerry Dugan Yeah.


00:18:32 - Kurian Tharakan It helps you refine your message because if it's no for not a great reason, then you can refine the message. If it's no for the right reason, perfect. Your message is now on track. Right. Because you don't want people who are not true believers at the beginning.


00:18:47 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. How important is it for the big idea to have guardrails to it?


00:18:51 - Kurian Tharakan What do you mean by guardrail?


00:18:52 - Jerry Dugan Guardrails like, things I will always do, things I will never do.


00:18:56 - Kurian Tharakan Well, those are values.


00:18:57 - Jerry Dugan Yeah.


00:18:59 - Kurian Tharakan What are the central tenets of your when we talk about movement, for example? Movements? Christianity is a movement. It had to be at the very beginning. It had to be at the very beginning when there was a very small clusters of communities of people. These were probably some of the most honest people in the community right at the beginning. And at that point in time, they were things that they would absolutely be known for doing and things that, you know, they probably won't do that because they are adherents of this central core set of values that we eventually called Christianity. So the guardrails to understand what those core values are, what you will always do, what you will never do, what you might consider, but probably no. Those are very important. And that'll put you offside in a lot of ways. But again, when you put to the majority of the people but for the most part, that is also about attracting more true believers. The more people you put off, the more people you attract that are true believers.


00:20:09 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And all this is being conveyed through story as well. We're talking specifically Christianity right now that the New Testament and the Old are filled with stories of these values of hypocrisy and forgiveness and love and those kinds of things, believing in miracles. So the stories are there. They're compelling. And you've got a book out, the seven Essential Stories Charismatic Leaders Tell and then how to create your own seven stories. Actually, that's not the subtitle. That's my note. Create your own seven stories to move people in mountains. Is that your subtitle?


00:20:50 - Kurian Tharakan Well, it's combining the role of culture with the power of strategic narratives to drive high performance organization.


00:20:56 - Jerry Dugan Okay, that was my notes.


00:20:59 - Kurian Tharakan But it is to how to move people and mountains with power story without question. Right?


00:21:04 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. I knew that phrase was not mine. People in mountains.


00:21:06 - Kurian Tharakan I was like, yeah. But I will say to you that the way we came up with the central pillars for that. And the first part of the book is all about culture. It's the always on operating system that drives your organization even when there's no one around to punish or reward the behavior that's going on. People just know what to do. And then you infuse that culture with the seven stories that people now have a direction and like you said, guardrails or values that they can then guide their actions into some kind of propellant to take their activities to achieve the results that the organization needs to get done.


00:21:43 - Jerry Dugan Yeah. And so we mentioned the big ideas, like the story that charismatic leaders start off with. Let's see, there's this really cool quote I want to throw in here. It's at the beginning of your book, I believe. While not everyone can master charisma, there is one charismatic tool that any leader can learn the power of storytelling, specifically, how to communicate a strategic narrative. And we already talked about the big idea. That's where charismatic leaders tend to start. What are the other six stories that we could have in our toolkit without giving away the whole book? We still want.


00:22:19 - Kurian Tharakan Amazon. I priced it really low, $3.49. Oh, yeah. For the Kindle version, it's 349. And if you're on Kindle Unlimited, you can just download it. That's part of your subscription, right?


00:22:32 - Jerry Dugan Nice.


00:22:32 - Kurian Tharakan For free. But yeah, it's a very inexpensive book. And plus, if you go, come to my website, strategypeak.com on the right side, you can download the infographic for it and give you the seven stories, and it's all free. Where I got these seven stories from is I studied the great religions of the world, and great religions one of the premises for why great religions are great religions beyond the belief in God or some deity of some kind, is that they were great marketers. And there's one of Apple's first marketing consultants was a fellow by the name of Regis McKenna. And Regis McKenna tutored Steve Jobs in the Fundamentals of Marketing.


00:23:13 - Jerry Dugan Right.


00:23:13 - Kurian Tharakan At the very beginning, 1976, 77, 78. And he had a great line and he said, great marketing takes its cues from great religion. Right. So great marketing takes its cues from great religion.


00:23:25 - Jerry Dugan Wow.


00:23:25 - Kurian Tharakan And because religion great religion. And we talked about the four, three dominant ones today, and amongst thousands of religions that have sprung up throughout human civilization 1012 thousand years, those three have fundamental communication methods and fundamental stories that great marketers can borrow from because they've already perfected this. And so when we looked at what the seven story pillars should be, we went to the great religions and you will recognize these seven stories. So we talked about let me give you the very first one creation and Origin. Shocking, isn't it? That's the first book genesis in the Bible. Creation and origin. How did this all begin? Story two is all about our identity, beliefs and values. Who are we as people? What are the core values that we aspire? What must we never do? What must we always aspire to? Then we got the big idea. What is that central transformation concept that allows you to go from where you are today to where you want to be? What is the big promise? Story four is the enemy we face. The enemy we face. We have the devil, the Satan in religion, right? But for you and I, it might be Hurricane IDA that comes up the coast, or it might be the upcoming election and who we fight for or fight against. It could be a lot of things. It could be childhood illiteracy. It could be about the sanctity of marriage. And that's a fight for thing. And childhood illiteracy is a fight against thing. We want to transform that. So we have to define a common enemy that we can then project our resources against to resolve. Story five is the mighty winds. And the mighty winds are simply the big macro trends that are powering your ship. And I say that every business, every organization, every movement is like a sales ship. Not a power boat, a sail ship. And sailing ships need wind to below the sails to propel it forward. Without wind, you're dead in the water. You're just bobbing along right now. These winds are absolutely necessary to power that ship. And your ship is your business model. But the winds are the big macro trends societal, technological, environmental, economic, political, legislative trends. And these trends, if you're counter to the trends, your ship will capsize. If you're with the trends, you can unfurl those sails and take full advantage of natural power, natural wind power to take it forward. Now, 1969, I think four universities were connected by a little thing called Arpadnet, which is an initiative of the Defense Department. 1969 connected four universities. They were able to transfer files over these telecommunication lines and such, right? And because it was funded by the Defense Department, it's sometimes called DARPANET. Well, that's the backbone of what we know, the initial genesis of what we know as the Internet, which in 1994 allowed the World Wide Web to be built on top of it, which allowed multibillion dollar fortunes to be created and a completely different way of conducting business. And so that meant the absolute ascent of things like the blogger, the podcaster, the micro media personality and it also meant the death of the small town newspaper, because advertising now shifts to where these big platforms are facebook, Instagram, TikTok, all those kind of things. So there's an example of one of those macro trends which started in 1969 that was lying in wait, and then it exploded in the 1990s. It laid in wait for about 20 years and then it exploded and it created a tsunami of change in its wake, a tidal wave of destruction, a tsunami of opportunity, and depending on which side of the wave you're on, you were either a victim or a victor. So that's story number, story number six is the first five stories are the left side of the equation. And if those five stories are believable, then there's an equal sign and it says, well, then this is the journey we must undertake. That's story number six. And because it's so believable, it's believable in the prospect's head, in your audience's head, right? Because they've come to that conclusion, they put the equal sign there and they know, now, this is a journey we must undertake. And you can lay it out for them. This is how we're going to do it. And then the final story, story number seven, and this is a critical one, it's the Why We Will Win story. Now, the Why We Will Win story is a summary of the previous six stories in a shorter form, right? But then it adds what we call our keystone elements. And keystone elements guarantee the win in your audience's mind. And keystone elements, there's hundreds of keystones, but common keystones are things like that. Superior people, superior technology, moral cause, we have to win death ground, right? Those are very common keystones. But when you combine these stories together, they are so powerfully persuasive, when they're believable, they are so powerfully persuasive that your audience persuades themselves. Those are the seven stories.


00:29:01 - Jerry Dugan You all got to get a copy of that book. I'm getting one. Awesome. Now, if folks want to get more from you, from your organization, of course, there's the book. They can get it on Amazon. Seven Essential stories charismatic Leaders tell. But where can they find curian?


00:29:19 - Kurian Tharakan Well, they can find curian@strategypeak.com, which is strategy, and then mountainpeak.com all one word. And like I said, come to the website, there's all my contact details there. But on the right side, you can download an infographic of these seven stories and it gives you little details on how to apply it and such. And you can take a lot of it just away, just from that. Right, so please do that and we look forward to seeing you there.


00:29:44 - Jerry Dugan Awesome. And before we go, Carrie, any final words of wisdom you want to share?


00:29:48 - Kurian Tharakan So you're in the leadership business, I'm in the leadership business. And whether it's personal leadership or an organization or market leadership, with your products and services. Right. And one of the quotes that I have in. My book is the following. And I honestly believe this, which is why I said it, right? When someone loses their way, it's almost always because they've lost their story. When they regain their story, they will regain their way. And we all have moments where we wonder, what are we doing? What are we have we achieved? How will we get to where we thought we were going? Usually this is the beginning of a midlife crisis of some kind, right? And if I ever take a look at clients that have lost their way, I go back to their origin story. Why did you start this business? Why did you start this business? And I had a client of mine just a couple of years ago and I asked him, why is it like this? And it was an absolute disaster. Lots of things were going badly. And he said, you know what, Kurian? I wrote that down one day. I wrote that down one day when I first started this business. And he went and found a one pager of the stories and in it was the most succinct, most clear reason why he started the company, which had no bearing to what the company looked like today.


00:31:07 - Jerry Dugan Wow.


00:31:08 - Kurian Tharakan He had completely missed the soul, the heart and soul of the business. And it turned into just trying to make money. And the whole process to getting him back on track was to rediscover his soul, rediscover the heartfelt reasons for why he started the company, then translate that into big ideas that can actually transform their customers lives. That's how we turn that business around.


00:31:32 - Jerry Dugan Wow, I love that. And you wrapped it up with a story as well for me, probably a cautionary tale like, hey, as you're branching out of this new adventure, Jerry, remember the soul of why beyond the Rut started and everything else that comes with it. Karen, it was great to have you on this show. I'm glad that we were able to connect and get this pulled together as quickly as we did.


00:31:50 - Kurian Tharakan Jerry, thanks for having me on your show.


00:31:52 - Jerry Dugan Now I hope you got a lot out of that conversation like I did. And if you want to learn more, just go to the Show Notes@beyondtherut.com. Three, five, seven. There you'll find links to Curryan's website, his book related episodes and more. Now, if you're looking to examine yourself and see what are the stories you are telling yourself, I invite you to buy my book, beyond the Rut. Create a life worth living in your faith, family and career. It'll take you on a three part journey to recognize whatever ruts you might be in, understand where it is you want to go, and then take action to get there. It's been out since March. You can find it on Amazon.com. But if you forgot all that, but you got yourself to the Show notes, then go ahead and click that link. Go buy yourself a copy. And then if you want to buy a copy for a friend, a family member, a coworker, or that neighbor across the street, you can do that. In fact, you'll have a tangible copy. You can just hand it right over now. I'm glad you joined me for this episode, and I look forward to joining you again on the next one. But until next time, go live life beyond the rut. Take care.